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PODCAST TRANSCRIPTS

How to lead by example and inspire future generations through personal empowerment

Have you ever wondered who you are when no one's watching, or who you could be if you never doubted yourself for even a second?

In today's episode, I’m shedding light on how to overcome obstacles that might seem too big to handle and how small, daily choices lead us toward a fulfilling life.

I’m diving deep into the topics of personal growth, overcoming self-doubt, and how believing in yourself can truly change everything.

For all my educator friends out there, we're also talking about the importance of self-care and how it isn't just good for you but it sets a powerful example for the next generation. It's about making a change, not just in our classrooms but in our lives, showing our kids how to live fully and face challenges head-on.

Tune in to discover how you can start your journey of self-improvement and become an empowered educator, making a real difference in your life and the lives of those you teach.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

Embracing failure as a path to success with Theresa MacPhail

As educators, we've all seen the fear in our students when they're afraid to make a mistake, the anxiety that bubbles up at the thought of failing. We can recognize it in ourselves too.

It's a common experience..

So how do we help our students understand that failure isn't just a part of learning, but a crucial step toward growth?

Join me and my guest, Theresa MacPhail, as we explore the power of embracing failure in education. Theresa, a medical anthropologist and seasoned educator, shares her journey from witnessing the effects of fear of failure on students to creating a class specifically designed to normalize failure and foster resilience.

Tune in and discover actionable advice for educators on how to create a classroom culture where failure is not feared but celebrated as a learning opportunity.

You’ll walk away with practical classroom management strategies that can help students shift their mindset about failure through journaling exercises, gratitude practices, and encouraging meaningful connections and conversations.

If you've ever struggled with how to encourage your students to take risks, make mistakes, and learn from them, this episode is for you. Discover how to empower your students to see failure not as a setback, but as a necessary and valuable part of their educational journey.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Theresa:
I’m a medical anthropologist and writer, usually of nonfiction, mostly about topics in public health and medicine. I’m also an Associate Professor of Science & Technology Studies at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, NJ.

My first book for Random House is out now (2023). It’s called Allergic: Our Irritated Bodies In a Changing World and it tells the story of the global rise in allergies over the last 200 years.

My next book, that I’m currently researching, is on aging. It dives into what happens to our bodies and minds as we age and why acceptance of aging (and our eventual deaths) is the key to “aging well.” Think of it like a “user’s manual” to your aging body (with a lot of troubleshooting sections). But, more importantly, it also traces out the long history of our fascination with aging and how and why aging transformed from a natural, normal, and healthy life experience into a medical problem or disease that needs to be “solved.” And what that approach to aging is doing to us collectively. (Spoiler: it’s not terrific.)

To book me for a speaking engagement, please contact the Random House Speakers Bureau.

Connect with Theresa:
Website: https://theresamacphail.com/
IG: https://www.instagram.com/drtheresamacphail/

TRANSCRIPT:

Jen Rafferty 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those fillings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:43
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. Today, I have with me, Theresa MacPhail and Theresa is a medical anthropologist and writer, usually of nonfiction, mostly in public health and medicine and is an associate professor of Science and Technology Studies at Stevens' Institute of Technology in Hoboken, New Jersey. And I heard about Theresa actually on one of my favorite podcasts of Freakonomics. And Theresa has incredible insight and a whole course now that she teaches about failure, and I wanted to share her expertise. So thank you so much, Theresa, for being here today.

Theresa MacPhail 01:22
Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.

Jen Rafferty 01:26
Yeah. It's important and let's just dive right in. I want to know why you discovered or thought that failure was something that really needed more attention in this explicit way that you've been creating for you and your students?

Theresa MacPhail 01:45
Kind of a tragic backstory. Over the years, I've been teaching in some capacity since around 2008. That's when I started as a TA in my grad school program. And now I'm an associate professors, I've had 12 to 15 years under the belt in the classroom. And I had been noticing over the last, let's say, five or 10 years, there seems to be an uptick in anxiety, there seems to be an uptick in depression. And especially lately, there seems to be a massive problem with students being able to organize their time, kind of freezing up not turning in assignments at all, like something was different. And I didn't think it was just generation shift.

Theresa MacPhail 02:26
So there was a lot of focus on social media. And I'm sure that part of it, I don't want to dismiss that angle of this, because I think it's obviously playing some sort of role. But I thought it was going deeper than that. And it was something about our culture that just wasn't sitting well with the younger generation. So we had a spate of suicides in 2017, 2018, that academic year. And we're pretty small school, and we had five students take their own lives. And that was quite shocking for such a small community. And one of those students was my student. I had her in my global health class.

Theresa MacPhail 03:06
She was engaged, lively, and there were no outward signs of any struggle she did well in my class. And it really shocked me and I spent a lot of time thinking about it. But later that same year, another student took her life immediately after doing everything she needed to do to graduate. So she had gone through all of her exam. And she left this note, and the only reason I know about the note is because her best friend was my advisor. And so she related to me what was in this note, and it was tragic. This girl felt though as though the best years of her life were behind her, and that she was destined to fail at everything she tried going forward, that this was the height of her life. And that all she could hope to do with disappoint everyone going forward.

Theresa MacPhail 03:59
And that for me was a real wake up call. Because I thought I knew that they were afraid to fail. But I didn't really realize how deep that fear of the future ran with them. And I thought clearly that fail better fail faster. Like all the stuff that we usually do about failure isn't working. They're clearly not thinking that they're capable or resilient, that if they do fail, that will be fine, that there's this sense that any wrong move and their whole life is going to be a stack of cards that just crumbles in front of them. And I said, what can I do? And so that's when I started thinking about should I teach one of these happiness classes?

Theresa MacPhail 04:43
Because Yale started the trend with their happiness class, and I thought well, but then I'm gonna be honest with you. I thought, isn't that just another thing you're gonna fail at? Most of us fail at being happy. I don't know about you, but I certainly not happy all the time. If happiness is the project of life, I'm definitely failing. And so I thought, I don't want to do that. What can I do? What if I called it failure 101? What if I did a class that tried to normalize failure, and on evidence based tools and techniques to instill resiliency and attack it from all these eight angles, because usually when we talk about failure, it's in business classes, and they're talking about the failure of Enron. And that just wasn't cutting it. So I started this class it I talked about on Freakonomics that you've heard about.

Jen Rafferty 05:36
That story, as tragic as it is. Treating this catalyst for change in this way is so powerful. I think you're right, having a focus on the stuff on the other side, right? The success, the happiness, the tools to feel, XYZ are all well and good. But if we're not actually speaking the language of the people who are feeling the feelings, we're missing the mark. And so I would love to know, you said you kind of attack failure and all these different angles, can you share a few of those ways in which we can look at failure as being something different than we might have realized or been brought up with.

Theresa MacPhail 06:22
Sure. I do a lot of work to show them how, for most failures, they're not black and white failures. Thing about something like a divorce, is that a failure or not? A lot of people would say not, especially if you learned from it, and you might have two or three gorgeous children that you got out of that relationship. And so we spend some time saying, Okay, what if the friendship fails, like the likelihood that they're going to keep the same friend group that they had in college, most of us will keep maybe one or two of our college friends and then years later, so is that a failure? Did you do something wrong? Or is that just normal life?

Theresa MacPhail 06:59
And so looking at theories of friendships, theories of identity, talking about how culture influences what we think of as success anyway, so one of the most productive things I have them do is work together in groups to come up with the standard American life narrative. What are you supposed to do, by what age from birth, cradle to grave, and it's a really productive exercise for them, because we map it all out on a whiteboard. And even while they're doing it, they'll say something like, we should buy a house. And then immediately they're like, but look at the situation today, we're not going to be able to afford a house.

Theresa MacPhail 07:41
And you can feel the anxiety and angst the building up in them when they're looking at this narrative. And then I asked them, so if you don't do this, are you a failure? And they obviously say no. And I said, but do you feel the pressure to live according to this narrative that you inherited, and they all can see how it's driving their anxiety, to just things like that, like getting them to see that these definitions of what failure are, is not really, it's usually not individual, we usually inherit them. And so getting them to rethink their own values, and what they're doing is great.

Theresa MacPhail 08:24
And we also talk about how some people are better at this than other like scientists have to get really good at failure, because that's all they do 98% of experiments are done. And if you're not able to handle that, you're gonna not be able to handle being a scientist. Engineering, and like how many startups fail in the first year, how many small businesses fail in the first year, you've got to be able to roll with that. So we try to unpack what the societal standards are versus what their standards are for themselves.

Theresa MacPhail 08:58
And I try to give them tools to press back on things that are unrealistic, and tools for coping when something they want doesn't happen. So we also talk about abject failure. What happens when something just doesn't work, and you don't learn anything from it. We talk about things like what if someone dies in a car crash? That's a failure, but you're not learning anything from that failure. What do you do in those deepest darkest moments where something is not part of the narrative at all? How do you incorporate those moments in your life.

Theresa MacPhail 09:34
And I try to get them to see that the normal part of life and crucial, but in fact life that you're not going to be able to get through life without facing some pretty dark things, but that's normal and that they can in fact, they're more resilient than they think. That's some of the angles that I try to attack it is not just, let's look at we working and why that fails.

Jen Rafferty 10:00
Yeah, which is interesting, but not always explicitly relevant to I'm feeling this way, and I can't work through my anxiety right now I don't really give a shit about we work. So what you're doing is tremendous. And I appreciate that you consistently saying this is normal, this is necessary, because looking back at our lives, the biggest moments of growth, and lessons come from the struggle and the failure and quote and quote, failure. That's an important differentiation here, because we're talking to failure in a very different way.

Jen Rafferty 10:37
And when you get to the end of a quest journey, you know, you don't look back and be like, wow, I really wish none of that hard stuff happens. It's wow, all of that stuff really got me to where I am right now. But getting through that doesn't feel good. And so can you talk a little bit about some of those tools that you alluded too with giving them some sort of map for resilience.

Theresa MacPhail 11:01
One of the assignments is I have them, their anywhere between the ages of 18 and 22. And I asked them to think of three occasions where they failed, and it was dramatic, so that they felt awful. And they have to journal and analyze that failure, so they have to relive it. So I asked them to tell me exactly what happened, and exactly how you felt in the moment, try to put yourself back there. What feelings did you have? What is your body feel like? Were you nauseous? Did you feel flushed? Was your heart racing? What did that feel like emotionally for you? And then after they relive it, try to take a step back and say now, how do you feel about it?

Theresa MacPhail 11:50
Now, today, when you're looking back at how you felt a year ago, six months ago, five years ago, whatever this particular failure is, what do you think you took away from this? If anything. And if you didn't take away from anything from it, if it wasn't a learning experience, what did you learn about yourself in that process? And that really helps them to see that they've already overcome thing, and that they already have tools. And a lot of it is oh, I didn't handle that very well. And I asked them to project if this thing happened again, if it happens now. How would you handle it now? And especially since we're here we are sitting in his class like, how do you think you would cope with this now?

Theresa MacPhail 12:35
That's something we do, I teach them all the standard tools that I probably are being taught in happiness one on one, and I tell them that not everything is going to work for everybody, we do gratitude journaling, to try to help them see that even in the worst day that they had, but you can still be really grateful for your taco, it doesn't have to be these massive things you're grateful for, it can literally just be I really liked this sweater, it's fuzzy and warm.

Theresa MacPhail 13:03
Focusing on those kinds of things, help them I have them try meditation, often it doesn't work for them. And that's okay, I have them write letters of gratitude to people who really matter to them. And then either send them or read them to those people. I have them think about their meaningful internet interactions throughout the day. So I have them think about who they interacted with, and then rate on a scale of 1 to 10 how meaningful that interaction is.

Theresa MacPhail 13:34
And then the next week, the goal is to create meaningful interactions even with strangers. So most of them are very introverted, I think it's just a product of being the Zoom generation, like they, especially the pandemic babies, they spend a lot of time online so they sometimes can be shy in person. I'm like you're at getting a falafel, make eye contact with the person handing you the falafel and say, are you having a good day? And try to make a human connection and those kinds of things really help them to see that there's a lot more at their disposal that will change the quality of their day to day life that is a bulwark to those bigger, horrible thing.

Theresa MacPhail 14:19
Because you can build up these small grains of sand before you know it. You've built a whole sandbag wall that separates you from feeling overwhelmed when one of the natural waves crashes on you. And I think doing that at the same time that we're talking about failure openly, it's kind of a weird alchemy. They get to the end of the class thinking yeah, I've got this. My life is not going to be perfect. But I think I've got this and that's exactly what I want them to think at the end.

Jen Rafferty 14:55
It's beautiful. And I think what you're describing is perspective. We're in this zoom generation. We're literally zooming out and creating more of a full picture of really what their lives can be and the choices they have in every interaction, in very moment and every thought that they'd have. Whereas before, the thing that might have felt like a failure could have been so big, that we were so close up to it, we couldn't actually see any of the other things that are around.

Jen Rafferty 15:29
So I think that word alchemy is does something to me, I think that's a beautiful way to describe it, because it is both. It has to be both. And I think there's something else that you said that I want to touch back on is that we have these big societal stories and these societal narratives that we're all very much a part of. And those can almost be a little bit more easily identified. But when we're talking about some of our inherited stories that might not even been, ours might not have even been our parents that might have been coming down from a few generations of drip edge, so to speak. Those limitations or perceived limitations, and that then correspond to failure. Those can be a little bit trickier. So can you talk a little bit about how you navigate that or how you get your students to self identify what some of those beliefs are.

Theresa MacPhail 16:27
We do a lot of work. And they have to keep a failure journal. So I asked them to keep track of their failures, big and small. You were late to class. You didn't do your homework. You didn't do as well on the test in chemistry as you thought you were going to. And part of the reason for that is to have them be more reflective about, is this really a failure? Like they have to analyze the failures. They're not just lifting them, they're looking at how it makes them feel and why. And I think doing that kind of showed them, oh, actually, this is my mom's dream for me. This isn't my dream for me. This is my mom's dream for me.

Theresa MacPhail 17:09
And it's her failure, and I'm feeling her failure. I feel like I failed because I'm feeling my mom. And that kind of helps them. And then I try to do the opposite, where I think the reason they're suspicious of feel better, feel faster, that kind of thing is that, especially here in the US, we're only comfortable with a failure if it ends in success. Nobody wants to hear the failure story, where you tried to be an actor your whole life, and you never were the end.

Theresa MacPhail 17:41
But I tried to get them to see that there's something beautiful about the person who spent their entire lives in off Broadway shows. And then maybe had a job on the side that they did to make their living, but they really were fulfilled by doing those community theater shows. And it doesn't have to be a story like oh, James Gandolfini wasn't anybody. And then when he was 45, it look, he was on The Sopranos, and he was so successful. That's not really a helpful failure story for people. Because they know the deal, they're not going to be Steve Jobs. They're not going to fail, be fired from their own company, and then come back and change the world.

Theresa MacPhail 18:28
Lots of them are just like, how do I do this? Like, what if I'm not a success, and so I try to unpack those failure stories we tell, because we love those stories. And that's one of our favorite genre of tales is something like the Steve Jobs story, where he struggled or people love to talk about JK Rowling getting rejected 200 time and then she Harry Potter, there are a lot of writers out there who are going to get rejected 200 times and not have a multibillion dollar franchise at the trying to get them to see past those narratives, and where those voices are coming from.

Theresa MacPhail 19:12
And I tell them, it's okay to believe in those narratives. But you should know that you're adopting them, you shouldn't just have inherited them and then they fill your brain and you don't know where they came from. Figure out where they came from, and then figure out if that's what you want. And if it is great, but if it's not, then you can put those down. And I think that's the process is classes, having them constantly doing that work. And doing it together helps because they also can see that they're not alone.

Theresa MacPhail 19:49
Most of us have the same fears. Most of us have the same pressures in different degrees. So I tell them it's like Fight Club, the first rule of Fight Club as you don't talk about Fight Club, whatever people talk about, and failure stays in failure. Because it should be a psychologically safe space for them to say things like, you know what my parents meant well, pushing me to be successful, but what they've actually done is make me terrified of failure. If that needs to be said, and I want my classroom to be a space where they say that, and then figured out what to do with it.

Jen Rafferty 20:30
Yeah, that's so powerful. And so now I kind of want to bring it back to the classroom, in this K 12 space, where so many of us learn about success and failure in a very black and white kind of way, regardless of what's said, because it's very trendy right now to be like, it's okay to fail, there's no such thing as failure. But at the end of the day, we're giving grades and you pass or you fail.

Jen Rafferty 21:00
And on top of that, too, which is where I'm always really interested in being and living in the work that I'm doing is the teachers who are in this space, and the administrators who are in this space, are products of that same constructs. So changing that is difficult, because it's not only about we're going to now try this new initiative, where, for example, I remember when I was teaching, and we had this policy now in middle school, that no zeros were allowed, you could only give a 50 as the lowest grade.

Jen Rafferty 21:35
And it was like we told everyone that gravity was no longer going to be a thing. It was just so over the top outrageous the backlash. And it really showed people's discomfort in something new because of their own tied identity to their own construct of what it would be in school, what it meant to fail, and what it meant to succeed. So I want to stay in this space for a little while, can you share some of your thoughts about, I guess, maybe the state of things because you're seeing these kids now coming from the K 12 system, and they're getting to you in a certain way. Let's talk about that for a little bit.

Theresa MacPhail 22:14
Yeah, it's unfortunate, because I think this push to teach to cast has really crumbled education, like this idea that your kids have to pass a standardized test, or, you know, it's all about the test scores and what school is failing or not failing, based on these average test scores. So all the teachers are driven to teach towards the test. I think the students have drank that Kool Aid. And they get into college, and I call the student the a minus students. It's really ironic, because I feel like the students who fail actually do better mentally than the students who get an A minus.

Theresa MacPhail 22:58
I would hesitate to say this, without data, but it almost feels like I'm more concerned about the mental health of a student who is used to getting four rows and then has a semester where they get a three oh, or something like that than I am for the student is really struggling, because that student will take the class again, they have to face themselves in that moment. They have to make some decisions like, am I bad at Calculus? Can I get better at this? How can I get better at this?

Theresa MacPhail 23:33
They have to think about resources like okay, I need a tutor I, but the student gets an A. Is so focused on that A, that they're not concerned about, did they learn something. And that, to me, is the tragedy of the situation. That they want the reward, but they're not really concerned about the process. They're entirely focused on the product. And I try to get them to see listen, out in the world like, when was the last time someone asked you about your grade point average? It doesn't it?

Jen Rafferty 24:14
I can't remember.

Theresa MacPhail 24:16
Right. And it but it's so ingrained to them because they're from K to 12. They're getting promoted or not. And especially in high school, they know that their GPA is going to be assessed when they're trying to get into colleges. And so then they have this idea, even though Google's not doing it anymore. They're like, Google's gonna look at my four oh, and it's actually they're not anymore. But they still have this idea that they're in some competition. And that's the arbiter of whether or not they are quote and quote smart.

Theresa MacPhail 24:54
And I have a really difficult time breaking them of that belief because without it, they're lost. And I think that's part of why they're so afraid of the future because I think on some level, they're intuiting that there is, there are no grades. I'm not being graded out here for my performance, we're not being graded for this podcast. You know, people are gonna listen to this have different ideas. Some people are gonna say, this is great. I really enjoyed this. Some people are gonna go, oh my god, that was the most boring 30 minute conversation they're full of shit.

Theresa MacPhail 25:31
And we're not in charge of that. We're doing the best job we can. We're trying to satisfy ourselves. And we've moved beyond thinking about grades. You and I are here because we care about students, we care about the people who teach them. And I try to get students to realize that is the mind that shift that has to happen. But it's really hard when their entire education is geared towards this measurement tool. And you're right, like every time someone suggests maybe we need to rethink grades, even though they were arbitrarily invented at Yale. Thanks a lot, Yale.

Jen Rafferty 26:12
Yeah. Thanks, Yale.

Theresa MacPhail 26:17
And why simply because an old Yale professor wanted to have a way to rank his students. And so now we have inherited that and even worse is I'll get students who come in, because it's a STEM school. So they've gotten A's, they in math, or they've gotten A's in science, but they've gotten historically C's or B's in English. And so they come in with a mindset, oh, I'm a C student in English. I can't write. Oh my, I just and trying to get them out of that. But what if that's not true? What if you are a changeable, non static creature that can adapt and learn and do her thing? What about that?

Theresa MacPhail 27:02
And what if a C just means that you're in the process of learning, and not, it's a measurement of all time of your skill, but that is really hard. So in failure, I don't give grade. And I give the big speech at the beginning of class saying, you have to find a way to do this work for you. Because you're not doing it for me, you're not doing it for the A, you're gonna get an A in here unless you stop coming and disappear. There's no way to not get an A as long as you're doing the work. But that being said, if I take that reward away from you, why are you here? Why would you keep coming to class? If you don't have to? You have to be able to answer that.

Theresa MacPhail 27:53
And for some of them, they look at me like I'm insane. What do you mean? And I say, are you going to stop reading because no one's grading you later in life? Are you going to stop learning because no one's there with a test at the end of the book that you've just read? No, right? So why not do that now. Be in this class for yourself. Figure out what you want to get out of this class. And for a lot of them, that is really hard.

Jen Rafferty 28:21
Yeah, it is. And that's something I asked a lot of my teachers too. Going back to that, why. If there's none of that extrinsic motivation, all of a sudden, you're getting rid of all of the excess stuff. And you really get quiet and in tune with what's happening on the inside to find that motivator, that truth starts to come out that feels maybe profoundly uncomfortable. But there's so much power in that because that is where your agency lies and how you navigate this, because you're right, you know, we were tethered to the system in K 12. And then in higher ed, if that's your decision, but then we cut the balloon loose. And if you're not tethered to your agency, then it's very easy to feel like everything is a failure, because you don't have any sort of calibration to who you are. And what a beautiful lesson that we can be teaching in schools now.

Theresa MacPhail 29:24
Can I anticipate the question you were gonna ask me?Because it's a good moment for it. You asked me what my dream for education. My dream is to somehow find our way back to thinking about education as something we're doing to build better, healthier, happier humans and not workers. I am sick to death of students simply thinking I'm here to get a degree so that I can get a job. And if it's not attached to the idea of a job then they think it's a quote and quote waste of time.

Theresa MacPhail 30:05
And that I think, does everyone a disservice. And I think that's part of teaching to the test, because teaching to the test is like, well, we've got to get them into a good school because they've got to get a good job. And they inherit that anxiety. And yes, we live in a capitalist. I don't want people listening to this going, Oh, my God, this is so idealistic. What about health care, they're going to need a job, of course, but they're so focused on the job, that they can't see the purpose, for anything that they're doing outside of that.

Theresa MacPhail 30:38
Like the idea that they would do something just to be better citizen doesn't compute. And this class is an effort to try to get them to think that way about education, this is for you. Never end your life. One of the things I missed the most about being in school is, when was the last time you sat in a room with 30 other people and talked about the meaning of life? For me, it's zero time. It's zero. And that is a really amazing, instructive, formative moment, if you can embrace it. For that sake, are you going to use that in your job at Google? Not really. But yes, because that's going to inform the type of human being that you are. And I really my hope for all of us is that education becomes about education again, and not about income.

Jen Rafferty 31:40
I also have to share because it's coming up for me, too, you know, I am a former music teacher. And so much of what you just said, really resonates in the way of education and the arts. This is the humanizing piece of education and failure in that space, is very different than what happens on a test. And living in that space is also profoundly uncomfortable for the kids who are not used to it. And even as a product of it, like I was a performer, I went to music school, I taught music, even me, I had struggles with this idea of failure, but through the art, we would do it anyway. And that would be the pathway to navigate through.

Jen Rafferty 32:32
And it's so interesting to see on this macro scale. Arts programs are also being caught at the same time as saying, hey, listen, we're gonna, it's okay to fail. But in actuality, we still have seat tests, we still have funding that is dependent on state tests, we have teacher reputation and teacher grading, according to state tests, we're cutting arts programs, it seems super counterintuitive, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Theresa MacPhail 33:04
Yeah, and I am sympathetic to that. What is someone supposed to do, the system has been set up in a certain way that if you try to do something different, you're going to be punished for it. And your students are going to perhaps, take a hit and see, you don't want to do that. So you have to play the game. And so I always feel like this has to be a larger cultural conversation about what we value and what the purpose of a college education is, what is the purpose of K to 12? What are they doing? Are you just are you trying to build a what certain skill sets so that they're better in life? But is that just Math and reading?

Theresa MacPhail 33:39
And what level of math what level of need? It's just I don't think we know what we're doing anymore. Maybe we never did, and we just were accidentally doing a decent job. And now that we're trying, we're finding out that we don't really know how this works that well, and I think a lot of it is our society is built on. I just read this book by the philosopher Kieran Setiya. And he talks about the difference between telic and atelic activities.

Theresa MacPhail 34:11
Telic activities are things that have an end goal built into them. You teach for the test, they pass the test, you're done. Telic activity. But learning is atelic that it has no end. It's all about the process. And he uses this example it would be insane and absurd to say I'm done listening to music. I've listened to all the music there is, I finished my goal of listening to music, that's it. No more music for me. Like all of us hearing that go with that. Absurd that. No, listening to music is something you do continuously for the rest of your life.

Theresa MacPhail 34:51
And the problem is that most of our education is built not for atelic but for telic. And I think we have to rethink that. because we're really doing them a disservice by not teaching them about the process of life, about all of these activities, that learning is never finished. You can't fail. You can't fail at calculus. All you do is keep struggling with it. There's this idea that that you fail that nice, no. But I think because we have those Teluk things at the end, that's where our brains are. And they're accidentally as little sponges, absorbing that ethic.

Theresa MacPhail 35:38
But I think if you ask most parents, that's not what the ethic is that they want their kids to absorb. But even they are accidentally cuz they keep talking about, you've got to do well in school, because then you've got to get into a good college, you'll need a scholarship, or and then you've got to get a good job. And they don't realize that they're accidentally doing exactly what they don't want for their kids.

Jen Rafferty 36:06
Yeah, there is a disconnect cognitively but our subconscious stories are so much stronger than that. And that's truly the driver. And again, just underscore what really we're talking about here is when the adults get it, and embody it and do it and be it, that's really the messages that our kids are going to be getting. It is not what we tell them, it's how we be. This is how we actually make change. And it gets me excited to have these types of conversations in this platform.

Jen Rafferty 36:39
Because I really do believe the more we can start having this type of dialogue, the more we can start changing little by little, you know, organizations don't change until people change. And I think that kind of going through the backdoor, like how you are with your class, how I am with my program through a powered educator, we're getting one person at a time. And that's really, I think, how we can make this change or at least start talking about how we can make change in the future.

Theresa MacPhail 37:08
Yeah, because it's shifting from a fear based platform, like I think even teachers were afraid for our students. And that gets transmitted to them subconsciously. And I've tried to switch to more of a joy based platform like that, I don't want to bring my anxiety into that room. Like I want to bring my playfulness and my creativity and my my resiliency into that room and model that for them. And I say over and over again, how many times I've failed, I talk openly about my own failures, because they can see I'm doing okay. And that is really powerful for me to go, you know, I really messed that up. Oh, I really messed this up. Oh, god, that was a really big time that I messed up.

Theresa MacPhail 38:05
But I have a job, I'm relatively sane. I'm relatively doing all right. So I think that modeling that, like I have, at every turn made mistakes. But I also trust myself that one of the things I tell them, that I hope they internalize is you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Because if you keep trying to be comfortable, you're not going to grow, you're going to be fear based. You've got to be willing to feel the gross feelings in life and not be afraid of them. And that's really hard. Because yeah, we're teaching happiness. They're getting the message. All right, I need to be happy. And in this class, no, not you don't have to be happy all the time.

Theresa MacPhail 38:50
In fact, I teach with Daniel Gilbert Stumbling on Happiness, highly recommend. It's an older book. But it's terrific. Based on the research, we're not even not good at predicting what will make us happy. So I try to get them to see you think you want this career, but you might not. And you'll be able to use this the things you learn, like how you think will be useful in other fields. And but they really think they've internalized our fears for them. And they really think one wrong move like the floor is lava. Oh my god, we didn't mean to do that. I'm so sorry.

Theresa MacPhail 39:30
But they really are like, super, super anxious, and they feel like they don't have much agency in the world. And my hope is that this class helps them see that they have way more agency, but it's micro agency. It's exactly what you were saying it from the ground up. No, we're not going to be able to do anything about climate change just does. But we can change our attitudes and that will eventually change our environment. And I try to give them that in this class, don't be afraid of failure, because you're going to fail over and over again. The important part is getting back up.

Jen Rafferty 40:15
Yeah, yeah, it's I think out of all of the messages that I've addressed here on this podcast. To me, this rings is one of the most important messages that everybody needs to hear. Because we, like you said, come so often from this place of fear. So we're afraid to fail. So we're afraid to move so we don't move. Right. And what life are we living then if we feel so paralyzed? What is that wasn't true? What is the floor wasn't actually lava, and instead, this beautiful field of fluffy clouds, and safety and love and joy? And are there going to be things that kind of jump up and get you every once in a while? Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 41:05
But in general, we're all standing on solid ground, and it's safe. And I think going back to what you said earlier, to doing this in community is essential. And knowing that you are not alone in this, you are never alone in this and everyone is going through their own path, the same, but it is the same, and the shame that we sometimes feel about what happens to us, and be dissipated when we share and realize that we're all we really are going through this human experience together.

Theresa MacPhail 41:42
I think that Brene Brown sometimes gets a tough rap from other academics and the work that she's doing to normalize shame and explain it. Because shame is one of the foundational emotional responses to failing. And it's why people don't ever talk about their failures. And so who can blame a student that comes into my class? I asked them, I give them a survey in the beginning and at the end, and I asked them to rate their rate of failure against how often they think other people fail.

Theresa MacPhail 42:17
And at the beginning of the class, they're like, everyone fails, but I definitely do it more, for sure. And then by the end of the class, they are like, no, I'm not my rate is normal. And it's because no one actually articulates how much failure there is in the world. And I love that thing that happened on Twitter now x, but it was Twitter when it happened when that scientists shared her failures TV. That was a beautiful moment. And then people started sharing their own failures. And I thought, if only we could do more of that would be fantastic.

Theresa MacPhail 42:58
And I think there's a gender dynamic here, too, I think I do not think it was a mistake that was a female. Because I think that in our society even more so like women can't fail, but minorities can't fail. You know, like anyone's seen as a minority figure feels like they absolutely can't fail. But we also know it's rigged. So I feel of course, it was going to be one of us. That said, screw this. What?

Theresa MacPhail 43:36
And men have such pressure to never fail, never sweat, never show any vulnerability and to say that you fail, it's very vulnerable. But it's also very powerful because it we all need to hear more about each other's failures because a we'll all feel better but be there's valuable information and failure that you are keeping from people. The best advice I could give to parents is talk to your kids about the times you messed up and recovered. Talk to them about how you feel uncertain. Talk to them about how you approach your failures, because that is powerful information for them to have. You're not doing them any favors by keeping your failures from them. They already know you're not perfect.

Jen Rafferty 44:25
Yeah, my kids definitely. There's no more facade. I think maybe you invigilator about signs and they've found me out real quick.

Theresa MacPhail 44:35
I think that information is valuable to people going through it, even if it looks different, like everybody said, everyone has their own path. But I think seeing other people's journey allows you to pick and choose and try out different things and then have some sort of psychological safety. And look, they did okay. I clearly can do this. And obviously, I can't save those girls who took their own life. But my hope is that anyone who comes through my classroom, that I am saving people now without knowing it. And I don't mean that to sound like I have a savior complex. But I hope that I'm doing something for the small subset of students that I see that changes their mindset, because I don't ever want to see another letter from a 22 year old again, who says, Why try because she knows life is just going to be a series of failures. I want someone to see a series of failures as a joyous adventure.

Theresa MacPhail 46:20
Is it powerful to see people further down the line. Like my favorite genre of the people I seek out now is I love these self identified Chromes who are in their 70s and 80s who are just like listen they just lay it all out and they're not afraid to talk about reality. And I think we need a lot more of that because it's helpful for those of us just see oh, no, I'm not screwing up my 50s. This is just what the 50s are like, or oh, I'm not screwing up my 30s. This is just what the 30s are like.

Jen Rafferty 46:28
Yes, yeah. So you know what? Let's go fail. I'm ready. I'm jazzed up. I'm like, all right. I plans to make dinner I might totally mess it up and I'm so here for it.

Theresa MacPhail 46:39
Yeah, joyful failure. Let's do it.

Jen Rafferty 46:42
Yes, let's do it. That is the call to action. Everyone who's listening right now, Theresa, this has been a joy and I so appreciate your time and the work that you do in this world that is so important, and what a gift to share it with the audience today. So if there are folks who want to know more about you and get in touch, what's the best way to do that?

Theresa MacPhail 47:01
You can follow me on threads or Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/drtheresamacphail/. You can Google me, I have a website with a link to email me, contact me, if you should use though desire. Those are probably the best ways to be honest. I'm on Facebook. Is anyone on Facebook anymore? Not really. But that's surely on there to talk to my older relatives. But if you are also on there to talk to your older relatives, then you can find me there, also. And my email is because I'm a professor, my professional email is up if you have any reactions or just want to tell me your failure story. Feel free.

Jen Rafferty 47:43
Awesome. Yes. And I will make sure that all of those links are in the show notes. It'll be super easy for people to get in touch. Thank you again for everything. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, which I knew that you did, go ahead and write a five star review, share it with a friend and subscribe and I will see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty 48:02
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

How to enhance learning experiences and make meaningful connections by understanding neuroscience with Chantel Prat

How can we continue to keep students engaged and motivated?

If we’re being honest, the traditional education system falls short in meeting everyone's needs.

In today’s episode, join me and the brilliant Chantel Prat, a professor with a vast background in psychology, neuroscience, and linguistics as we explore why it's crucial for teachers like you to understand the brain's workings to connect better with students and create a classroom that brings out the best in every student.

Discover how to foster meaningful connections and effective learning environments. Chantel breaks down the importance of self-awareness, empathy, and tailoring educational strategies to suit individual needs.

We'll talk about how stress is a major factor, affecting learning more than you realize, and what you can do about it. Learn why taking care of yourself is key to being a great educator.

Choice can be a powerful thing in the classroom, and we'll discuss how giving your students more of it can transform their learning experience.

Tune in and join the conversation to make a positive change in our education.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Chantel:

Connect with Chantel:

TRANSCRIPT:
Chantel Prat 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those fillings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes - Podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:42
Hello, and welcome to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I am with Chantel Prat, who is a professor at the University of Washington with appointments in the departments of Psychology, Neuroscience and Linguistics and at the Institute for Learning and Brain Sciences, the Center for Neuro technology and the Institute for Neuro Engineering. Her work has been supported by the National Institute of Health, the Office of Naval Research, and the Keck Foundation. Chantel speaks internationally at events like the World Science Festival, and she has been featured in the documentary I Am Human. And she is also the author of The Neuroscience of You. Her studies have been profiled in media ranging from Scientific American, Psychology Today, and Science Daily, to Rollingstone, Popular Mechanics, Pacific Standard, Travel and Leisure, and National Public Radio. And of course, now, Take Notes. So thank you so much for being here with us.

Chantel Prat 01:43
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you and your listeners.

Jen Rafferty 01:47
I am so excited to have this conversation. So let's just get down and dirty into it. Why do we need to be talking about brains, particularly with teachers and in school communities.

Chantel Prat 02:01
I think when you read the laundry list of people who I've talked to about brains from mechanics to travel and leisure, I think if you're working with people, and you don't understand the brain, it's really hard to do what we all do when we're trying to connect. And that's to reverse engineer, the mind that is driving the behavior of interest. Now, this is just if you want to have a polite conversation with somebody who's bringing you a cup of coffee, I think it's a great idea. But if you're trying to shape another mind, it's really hard for me to imagine how one goes about that without understanding how they got to the place that they're at right now.

Chantel Prat 02:37
And I think with respect to your audience, who are educators who are trying to understand themselves and take care of themselves, I would say that you have the power to start with you. And that one of the common mistakes we all make is that thinking other people work like we do, we put ourselves we're social creatures. And we learn using this mirror neuron system, which essentially says I observe a behavior. And my brain activates the parts that I would use to create that behavior, we put ourselves into our understanding of the world around us. And it's automatic, and it's invisible. So as you see patterns cropping up over and over in your relationships, you might not realize how much of that is the lens through which you see the world permeating into the way you understand others.

Chantel Prat 03:33
And I would just say like, so there's two things here. And the answer. One is, if you don't understand yourself through the lens, the perceptual and conceptual lens that your brain creates, you can't subtract oh, that's me. That's a me thing. From the way you're understanding another individual. We automatically instinctively quickly put interpret others through our own lenses. So I think that's super important.

Chantel Prat 04:02
And the second thing is that behavior, somebody can behave in a certain way for different reasons. We succeed and fail and struggle for different reasons. And performance on a test, for instance, or in a classroom doesn't necessarily give us all the information that we need to understand the why of that. So I think understanding something about not only how brains work on average, but how different brains, think, feel and behave, can give us the tools for knowing what questions to ask what contexts we need to vary, to try and figure out why somebody is behaving the way they're behaving.

Jen Rafferty 04:43
Yeah, so necessary and a huge part that's missing from pre-service teaching programs, for sure. I mean, maybe we'll get a semester of Educational Psychology, and then that's it, but something that I really want to continue to go back to you because this is really aligned with what empowered educator is about, we have this foundation of the most generously thing you can do for your students is take care of yourself. And what you're suggesting right now, which is so aligned is that so much of our focus is out word, we want to reach the kids, we want to talk to the parents, we want to get to the same page with our administrator.

Jen Rafferty 05:24
But what really needs to happen is looking inward, and who am I and how do I operate, how do I perceive the world so that then we can do all these other things? And that's challenging to say, you know, okay, this is a me thing. Requires a certain level of responsibility and sometimes uncomfortable confrontation with yourself. Can we talk a little bit about how to navigate that.

Chantel Prat 05:50
I mean, I'm still thinking about this doing like reading papers about it, and sort of working through it myself, because I guess I'm always like, capital T, truth is so slippery. So the truth as my brain perceives it based on the information it has access too, is that there is no separation between the way we understand ourselves and the way we understand the world, I think we have this, one of the most important tricks our brain plays on us is making us believe that we're seeing these objective truths, but it feels like we open our eyes and perceive the world like a movie. But instead, we're taking low resolution samples of the world around us.

Chantel Prat 06:32
And we're constantly filling in the blanks based on what we expect to be happening based on our previous lifetime of experiences, like we are inference generating machines. And the way we come to understand ourselves and our place in the world, are intimately intertwined. They're tied to our previous experiences. And so you might think this dress is blue and black. And somebody else might say no way that dress is white and gold. And something as straightforward as the color of an object can be open to different interpretations based on people's previous experience with light and shadows.

Chantel Prat 07:09
So you think about how that scales up to something like, what do you think of as success in the classroom or success outside of the classroom? Or how do you define well being? It's just the you, like your sense of self, is really, largely like, what is the common denominator on all of my life experiences, you know what I mean? And we are unable to be objective about that. Any more than we can be fully objective about all the incomplete information we have about the world around us.

Chantel Prat 07:44
So it is, I think it's a delicate balance between learning and having awareness of these things. And also saying, my brain is actually not motivated to know the truth. It's motivated to figure out what works for me, and to move me through the world in a way that drives success. A lot of information that you're presented with, doesn't inform your decisions, if you were trying to understand the truth. There would just be a lot of irrelevant stuff in there. Right?

Chantel Prat 08:13
So the truth as I experience it, what happens in your brain is that it's looking for information that's important for you. And it's turning up those signals, and turning down signals on things that it's decided based on your lived experiences aren't important to you, it prevents you from seeing the truth. Because that's not what's really important for driving success. What's really important for driving success is like what works for you.

Chantel Prat 08:41
And so I've been thinking about this a lot, my husband, and my life partner is also a cognitive neuroscientist, he works really differently for me. And so when I am sort of testing my hypotheses about myself or like some other person, it's kind of nice to have an information partner who says, hey, like, I'm trying to notice things that are inconsistent with my ideas of me, because I know that I'll notice the things that are consistent, and I'll keep reactivating those things. Will you help me pay attention to when I am really disciplined or something like that, you know, I think sometimes in order to sort of have an accurate sense of self, in order to update your old beliefs, you need to establish a new practice of noticing things that are surprising or inconsistent with kind of your view of self and it's hard.

Jen Rafferty 09:30
Yeah, it is hard. And I think doing it from a place of curiosity is obvious. So we're not judging ourselves and coming from that place of shame and blame, for example, being consistent in my mind goes to you know, yeah, I said I would go to the gym as many times and now I'm not so looking at a mirror in that way. I can teeter on the side of judgment, if that's what I choose, and having a mirror of someone like you just describe like your partner, so exciting. But I think that's also why this seems to work and learn about this in community so that we are able to do this. So having a space like a school or school community where everyone speaks the same language, those conversations are able to happen. Can you talk a little bit about maybe how we've seen that play out?

Chantel Prat 10:19
To be perfectly honest, I haven't. But I think it's really important. So I just read a book called Why We Remember by my former graduate Professor Charles Ranganath. And in that he talks about social memory. And there are pluses and minuses. And it's a little bit related to what you mentioned,. There's something about being in community, which is really good, and being in a safe space and being supported for testing out these different vulnerable hypotheses about self and that I can speak too.

Chantel Prat 10:49
But when it comes to looking for evidence, like having other people help you notice things that you might forget, or ribcage or reclassify experiences that you've labeled in a certain way. I haven't, I don't know, it seems like very in my life, I have this community of too, I think we could learn to do it by ourselves. But I do think that as you read that task, you get more objectivity, which I think brings to the point of the power of working in teams of people who work differently, when you can, when you have the tools and the space to connect with people whose brains don't work like yours. You get these like beautiful, different ways of seeing the world and these different perspectives on what you can become so entrenched, as is this is right or wrong. This is the truth or the not truth, because again, our brains are constantly feeding us things that are consistent with what works for us.

Jen Rafferty 11:45
Yeah. Let's go back for one second about something you said earlier about success. Because for me, that's that's stuck out, particularly in academia, we have this one size fits all, I was fortunate enough to fall into the type of typical brain that did well in school and collected my A's and gold stars, and associated a lot of myself works to those things to another story for another time. And I'm also a child of the 90s, where like tracking was a thing. And now moving forward, we're having lots of different conversation about neuro divergence.

Jen Rafferty 12:22
But the truth is, and this speaks to really just the title of your book. Everyone has their own way of being. And so this one size fits all we know cognitively doesn't work, but changing this organizational structure is like moving a mountain, what are some things you can speak to at least start to plant some seeds as to how we can start thinking about moving this in a different direction?

Chantel Prat 12:48
Man. That's a big and important question. So the first thing I want to say is that this idea of like classroom based learning, or good learning, for even typical learning, versus a typical learning, is so largely culturally defined, and also, importantly, is so small when it comes to how your brain define success. And how your brain defines learning, right? So let's just talk about the difference between instructed learning, like if I am standing in front of you, and explaining how to do something, or you're watching a video on YouTube, how much of how you think of yourself, as a good learner is tied to your ability to regurgitate in some way, a thing that you learn through instructions, you know, it could be I mean, most of us don't think about how well we put together furniture with an Ikea instruction versus something else as but that's instructions too.

Chantel Prat 13:54
But so much of how we think of ourselves as learners is tied to classrooms. And I think the first point I want to make is that is a really probably uniquely human, very evolutionarily new and very expensive way to learn. When you think about learning from your brain standpoint, this is I have had an experience. And by the way, your brain does not care if this experience is real or imagined. So even when you go back and reclassify, oh, that was good, or that was bad. You're creating a new experience that your brain learns from so learning from your brain is I have had this experience and I'm going to use this experience to reorganize the way I think, feel and behave in a way that is going to have a better outcome in the future. That's learning the way all behaving animals do it and it's the vast majority of the way people do it.

Chantel Prat 14:45
We do it by trying things and seeing what works trial and error learning is how we learn to acquire the language through which we can eventually get instructed learning through, right? So the instructed learning is something that your brain saves for special occasions. It's not the meat and potatoes of how you grow from your experiences. So this is like step one, we have this really weird if you think even just about human evolution, there's this really weird thing, which is like, I'm going to tell you a thing, then you're going to absorb that thing. And then you're going to take a test.

Chantel Prat 15:20
Usually, it's not even about can you now go fix a car or use that thing to navigate Barcelona or apply it to make better decisions in the future, right like that. Even if we said, okay, let's evaluate, instructed learning by not by somebody's ability to regurgitate it or to make it in their own words and do it on a test, but actually, by somebody's ability to apply it in a way that maximizes their version of success, right? I just learned about world history. And now I'm called to vote or something. And I can apply that in a way that changes my decision, knowing what happened in the past, not like I'm going to take a test and say this war started at this time, but like, I'm going to feel like I make better political decisions now or something like that.

Chantel Prat 16:08
It's just so the definition of classroom learning is so specific. It's not that it's not how human brains learn. But it's such a small way of assessing how human brains learn. And it's such a specific type of a kind of like, Apex type of human learning, that when we say somebody wild to me to think that up to 10%, of native English speakers can be considered to have dyslexia and this winds up being a huge percentage of the people who are diagnosed as learning disabled, right.

Chantel Prat 16:38
And then because of the way that our modern classrooms work, it makes it harder for children who have dyslexia to acquire information about history that then they'll use to vote, and so forth, and so on. Right. It's complicated, I guess it's complicated. And, and what I like to say is a lot of the types of diagnoses that people consider to be neuro divergent things like ADHD, autism, or dyslexia, just for example, these things are increasing in frequency, they're not necessarily a typical, there are just ways of learning being or interacting, that have been deemed to be not working well in this culture that we have defined as how we learn, and with the sort of metrics that we've used as how we learned, but in fact, every brain learns a little bit differently. All of us are trying to learn in a way that sort of maximizes our future success based on our previous experiences.

Chantel Prat 16:38
In fact, these people have a hard time learning through written instructions. But actually written language is really new for human brains. It's like possibly 5000 years old, where spoken language is 50,000 years old or more. A person with dyslexia has a hard time extracting verbal information from these like tiny random squiggles that we learned through thousands of hours of practice to translate into sounds and then words and then the ideas that we want to communicate. And that sort of bottleneck creates that the stigma of being learning disabled.

Chantel Prat 17:15
And I think, appreciating sort of the bigness that is learning in the brain. And the separation between things that can define and motivate success for an individual and what we have defined as a culture to be good learning, which might actually not really set us up for success. And all these interesting ways other than the confidence that comes from saying, hey, I did. I got straight A's at this school. And so that means I'm capable of all these things that really, as you alluded to, your college education didn't necessarily prepare you for in any way. Other than making you think you can do hard things. It's a really big thing you've highlighted here, in this sort of separation between book smarts or like classroom performance. And the way it's our brains go about trying to maximize our individual success based on what works for us.

Jen Rafferty 19:06
Yeah. And so, you know, this can feel very overwhelming now, because okay, so I'm in a classroom 26, 30, sometimes even 35 students who all have different brains, and my experience of the world is coming from my own reign and my own experience projecting onto all of these children. So now what? Well, I guess that it's a big question, but we can take it micro too. What happened.

Chantel Prat 19:36
So I think that there's mounting evidence that kids who spend more time in a class with the same teacher have greater levels of success. And the reason that I believe that's true is because if you aren't have the same students for two years, you have twice as much time to get to know them as individuals and I think that what's going on there. I don't know think about like, oh, do you like history and so you learn these things I'm gonna give you these books. It's about relationship building.

Chantel Prat 20:06
And the reason that I think that's important is that even for people like you and I, who did really well, in school, it's so hard. It's hard. And it's the fact there's part of this fact that we did well in it. And then we got reinforced for it and motivated us to do the work, to work through hard things, even if we were like, I don't know if I'm ever going to need this in my life again or not. And so I think that understanding each individual in from a standpoint of what is important to them, and what motivates them, I think, being able to see this person and motivate them based on what you can glean is their reward system is their "why" is the most powerful thing you can do.

Chantel Prat 20:50
Like you're sitting here, and you're teaching music, or math or history, and maybe 25% of those students have like self selected into this class and 75% have to do it like how do you lock on to what is important to them, to their why, and get them to be motivated to get the information that you're trying to give to them. And you talked about curiosity, that's the key right there. So once I was in a writing group with people who from all different backgrounds and disciplines, there were like spoken word poets and people who wrote travel guides, and we would take turns writing, and one time a science fiction writer said to me, after I read a blurb from the book, they said, I feel like you're one of those sneaky moms who puts vegetables in dessert.

Chantel Prat 20:50
And I thought it was such a compliment, because what they were trying to say is I have taken something that they thought they would never care about neuroscience, and said, how can you not care about this, like this, you connect it do the work to you know, I would hope that the things that we've decided to teach in our public education systems are in some way connected to this person's future success or functioning and the everyday world. But we don't always do the work to make those connections clear, interesting and exciting. And to understand that they might look differently to different people.

Chantel Prat 22:09
So I read a study, we're talking, we're doing research on self education and sort of personalizing neuroscience education in our lab. And I read a study that shows that if you give like a questionnaire about interests to a student, so it might be like, Here are 15 things you rated on a scale of one to 10 like basketball, unicorn, I don't know, I'm just thinking about like, different things someone might care about. Then you put Math word problems into these contexts, like suddenly, instead of doing three plus four, you're doing this many dribbles plus this many points or whatever, or three unicorns and for, I don't know, Stardust trail.

Chantel Prat 22:47
So as something as simple as like putting the thing into a context that somebody already cares about, dramatically improves their performance and their learning. So I think that's where I would start, if I were a teacher. Instead of this person is problematic, because they're not succeeding in this environment, like spending the time to say like, this person's brain is doing exactly what all of our brains do. It's trying to maximize their success based on previous experiences. Maybe they haven't had the same previous experiences as other children who are doing well. Or maybe their brains are driven by different intrinsic motivators, like how do I imagine what this brain is wanting based on what I see in the classroom? And how do I use that to contextualize and when I'm trying to teach in a way that motivates a student?

Jen Rafferty 23:36
To me that question, lights me up. I did. I'm so excited about that question. What does this person's brain want and need is so much different than this kid is giving me a hard time. And I don't know what I'm supposed to do about this. It's a such a different type of question.

Chantel Prat 23:58
And it can change things because I imagine I mean, you might think I can't imagine this, but I get a group of 18 to 22 year olds, and I've got them in the classroom. And I'm like, I'm teaching you what I think is the coolest stuff ever. And you're showing up with a different set of conditions, right? Like, you might think this was the coolest thing ever, if you didn't just have a biochem test and do an all nighter or you're sick, or your partner just broke up with you. Or there's all you know, you might say, oh, these kids are not motivated, they're not doing their homework, but it's like a lack of an under appreciation of each of these people as three dimensional human beings with a whole bunch of other stuff going on. And with different reasons for it. Some of them are like, I am taking this class because I want to understand myself and some of them are taking this class because it was on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 1:30 when they were already on campus. But you have the opportunity to make them all learn and love that. You just need to get a little bit deeper into the whys.

Jen Rafferty 24:53
Yeah. And so can we talk a little bit about motivation for a minute, and can you explain in what's happening inside your brain when you are motivated to do something.

Chantel Prat 25:04
Yes, yeah, that's a great question. So in general, I would say motivation comes from a two part process. And one is, I anticipate that this thing is going to bring me a reward. Right. And if I have two, three, four choices, and the first thing I'm going to say is like, how likely in the past are these two, three, four things to bring me a reward. And if every time you do this thing, it brings you a reward, your brain will start giving you those feel good chemicals before with dopamine, most likely, before you even do that thing.

Chantel Prat 25:05
So it's kind of like dopamine, we think of as as the reward chemical, but it's really like motivating the actions that get the rewards. It's like dropping these breadcrumbs along the series of decisions that get you to good stuff. And what's so important about dopamine for learning is that not only does it make you feel good, it's all yeah, this is the drive to do this thing. It induces neural plasticity. So even if in the lab, for instance, in the scanner, you can give people trivia questions. And if you ask them, how interested are they to know the answer to that question.

Chantel Prat 25:47
Like some trivia questions you know the answer and you're not interested. If it's about a topic you don't care about, you're not interested. But some trivia question is like, oh, man, that was my favorite band. And I can't think of that their first hit song. I'm so curious about that. If you report a high level of curiosity, not only do you see these dopamine reward areas lining up at the question, you're much more likely to remember the answer because this dopamine is inducing neuroplasticity, that neuroplasticity is meant in the world to rewire your brain in ways that help you go down that path that gets you to rewards again, right.

Chantel Prat 27:00
But the beautiful thing about the human brain is that it considers information or reward. In fact, the parts of the brain that are anticipating information rewards, are exactly the same parts of the brain that anticipate a food reward when somebody comes into the lab food deprived, and you give them a picture of a cheeseburger or a salad and you ask them which thing they want to know it's the same exact driver, as do you want to know the answers to this trivia question or that trivia question.

Chantel Prat 27:29
So part one of motivation is I anticipate a future reward. And I think this is where teachers become really important. Because if you don't think you're going to be successful at something, if you have a history of being not good at this thing in the past, or being corrected, publicly corrected, or whatever. One of the things that we all have in common is that we don't work to be bad at things like when in the real world, would you choose something that you suck at, that you've stably been bad at? That's hard. Like, it just wouldn't be a good evolutionary strategy, right?

Chantel Prat 28:01
So if you are anticipating not being good at something, it might manifest as, oh, this kid doesn't care. They're not motivated. But in fact, it's because they have this history of perceived failure, when they might really care and have a lot of shame around that. And it's just I'm going to avoid that like the plague. Because that's been painful in the past.

Jen Rafferty 28:24
Can I ask the question about that, then just for clarity. So then this type of motivation, if we have those consistent experiences, really affects our own self efficacy?

Chantel Prat 28:38
Correct. That's correct. Yeah. And self efficacy is based in part on social comparisons with others and in part on your history of success with this thing, right, and the feedback you've gotten. And that's correct. So like, and I think that like dopamine and motivation is a big part of not only the neural basis of like, why self efficacy has such a strong effect on performance, but also this idea of a growth mindset. So like, you struggle at something, and it's hard, because it's hard for all of us. And then there's a level of story that you add to that thing.

Chantel Prat 29:11
And because that's what our brains do, they make up stories that tell us that connect the events in our life. And if the story you add is, this thing is hard, because I suck at it. And every time I try, my teacher says, nah, do it again or whatever, if the story is I'm bad at x, that does not motivate you to put in the work to do it. If the story is I'm struggling because this is a hard thing. That's the growth mindset like not yet. Right? It's so then it's I'm struggling because this is a hard thing, but everyone's struggling and that struggling might be invisible to me because they're not all getting publicly, whatever is going on or you just can't see other people's effort. You might not see that the person who got a better grade than you studied twice as much as you did, right.

Chantel Prat 29:56
But if you say this, I'm struggling because this is a hard thing, but I know that if I master this thing, I'm going to feel so good about myself and I'm gonna, it's gonna allow me to do x, y and z, then you are more likely to make the choices to work hard, you know, you're more likely to be motivated. And especially if you're like a person whose previous experiences have set you up to like a challenge, oh, this is a hard thing. Only 5% people can do it, like some people will find that all yeah, I'm going to be one of those 5%. And I'm going to work really hard. But those are people who haven't told themselves the story that they're deficient.

Chantel Prat 30:34
I want to tell you one more thing. And that is that, even within that dopamine estimate of rewards, there's two sides to that street, our brains have a path that move us towards the things that we think are going to be rewarding, and I've been talking about that. But the human brain as opposed to like AI has another path that moves us away from things that are not rewarding. So you can and it's separate. And there are genetic differences that shape how strong those two paths are.

Chantel Prat 31:00
So some people are really motivated by like potential like stickers, or a positive. Everybody likes positive feedback. And nobody likes negative feedback. But the strength of those two things as motivators like I'm motivated not to make a mistake in public. I'm motivated not to do something that feels like socially embarrassing, or that feels hard, like the stick learners might move through the world almost entirely by avoiding negative consequences. So I think that's important for teachers to know about themselves, and about other people. And I will just say that you can go to my website, which is chantelprat.com, there's an experiment button, then you can actually do the carrot and stick task yourself and find out the extent to which your brain learns from sort of like successes and setbacks, which I think is a pretty powerful tool.

Jen Rafferty 31:46
Yeah. I love all of those things on your website. And in your book, all of the activities in your book find so fun.

Chantel Prat 31:50
Yeah, I think it is amazing. Me search, me search, me research. I love it. Sorry, I got a little carried away there. I'm obviously carrot. I'm very carrot learning, too. But the second part is the estimated effort, right? So motivation is about cost benefit analysis. Every decision we make, little decisions we're not even thinking about whether to hit the snooze button, your brain is quickly making an assessment of how hard this is and how much the reward is. And I think that in this space to go back to the like, our brains are not motivated to understand the truth, but what works for us. And I think it's really important to realize that how harder or easy something is, or how harder or easy we believe something will be and how rewarding or not rewarding we believe something like both sides of this coin are shaped by that person's individual experiences.

Chantel Prat 32:43
So I have this really salient mentorship failure that I remember early in my career. So when I was getting my PhD, I was also I'm like, first gen college student, I'm super scrappy, I was that person, it was like, this is hard, you're gonna do it anyway. I was also a single mom, I had a four year old. And I just was like, I'm doing this because failure is not an option. And I just like stubbornly bullheaded my way through. So, one of my first graduate, who is amazing, she's so one of my most precious friends, we talk all the time, was struggling in graduate school, she was having a particularly hard time where there's a lot on her plate, and I made a mistake that I think all of us make.

Chantel Prat 33:24
And that is I interpreted her level of struggle through the lens of my experiences, right. And she was sharing with me feeling overwhelmed and everything like that. And I said, if this is the hardest thing you've ever had to do, you're really lucky. That I thought I was being motivational. False, that was not true. And she said, I'm very thankful for the trust in the relationship, because she said, I know, but it still feels bad. And that was such a wonderful learning opportunity for me because I had the science to understand that what I was doing was wrong. But I was doing what we all do, which is like putting ourselves into someone else's situation.

Chantel Prat 34:07
So how hard we think something is or how motivated we are, how rewarding we think it's gonna be. It's tied to our own experiences. And we can't fall no, this you know, that they're like, the world doesn't divide itself into people who bad things happen to them, people who don't, right, it doesn't work like that. Instead, what you see is how people respond to those things. And I think it's just really important to contextualize that, that that like how bad or good something it is not an absolute truth. It's a relative truth for that person. Right? As my student who so graciously reminded me to shut up with your toxic positivity. This feels bad right now. Okay. This is my reality.

Jen Rafferty 34:48
Yeah. And that's, I think, underscores what we've been saying all along is the importance of knowing yourself. Even just that situation. Which think thank you for sharing that. Because I know we can all relate to that resonated with me for sure, too. I remember actually saying that to a student of mine early in my teaching days, and looking back on that I cringe at that moment, but I didn't know what I know now. And you need to know yourself, in order to navigate through all of it in a way that feels aligned, at least that's the word that comes to me is alignment. And so I want to stay there.

Jen Rafferty 35:28
But I also want to ask you this other question, because I think that's really important, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask it. Because we've all just lived through a pandemic. There is a certain underscore of stress that exists in all of us simply because of the trauma that we've all experienced. And so when we talk about anything regarding our brain, I think we have to talk about stress, and how that affects our ability to do all of the things that we're talking about. And can you speak on that and how that is relevant to the role that we have to play in the classroom?

Chantel Prat 36:11
Yes, so I would say from my perspective, what's really important to understand is that just like I talked about classroom learning is only a fraction of how we learn from our experiences. Behaving according to our just like you and I just said, we did a thing, we didn't understand the thing that was like a natural response for us, then we learned that this is not a subway to support another person. But even though we know that there are different ways of knowing that's what I want to say, there are different ways of knowing this trial and error type knowing gives rise to the energetically efficient, intuitive ways of behaving that are actually often very good. And like empathy is an intuition.

Chantel Prat 36:54
That's not if you learn it, you have like this rational kind of way of understanding, that's great, that breaks you out of this kind of mirror neurons and system. But I don't want to say that our intuitive way of behaving is always bad, it gives us the right answer a lot of times, and it's efficient and easy. It's when we learn better and want to do different. Want to override, because that's also where our biases live, and where our baggage lives. And we might be trying to thrive in a different environment than the one our brain adapted to.

Chantel Prat 37:25
So when we want to use a piece of information that we learned through instructions, to behave better, Maya Angelou said, Do the best you can until you know better than when you know better do better. And that is great. And it's hard. Because that requires this really expensive part of your brain, these frontal lobe executive systems that have to come online and say like, don't behave right now, stop, think for a second, don't let the fastest horse out of the gate. You know, there are things in there that you can use to guide your behavior. But it's important to acknowledge that's expensive, you can only really use one goal at a time to guide your behavior.

Chantel Prat 38:08
So if you have three things going on, that you're trying to do to override your pre potent automatic responses, you're gonna have to juggle those things. If you're stressed. Stress eats those neural resources, right? So it eats away your cortisol, eats away at your frontal cortex. When you're stressed in nature, your brain doesn't want you going, wait, let me know. When you're stressed because something is trying to eat you.

Chantel Prat 38:32
And your brain doesn't want you to go wait, let me consider like the pros and cons of these three different ways of responding to a student. That's not the mode your brain is in. And for many of us speaking from personal experience, I will say that January of this year, was the first time I felt fully energized in so long. So I had the pandemic, we had two losses in the family. I wrote a freaking book during all of that, like all of us were depleted. And I sort of just thought like, oh, this is me, I'm just aging like the early 2020 was so long ago, I just thought oh, I'm never gonna feel like I did. I just thought I was just getting old.

Chantel Prat 39:14
And you need to have as much sleep as you can like sleep gets rid of the toxins in the brain. When you wake up and you feel like sand in your eyes, and you feel like the cogs are just turning slowly, your brain is literally just sitting in its own waste. It's really important to sleep and rest. And I think the other thing is to be compassionate with yourself and to understand that reading a book or knowing better isn't magically transforming you into the person that you want to be.

Chantel Prat 39:14
And then finally I just like I'm on sabbatical this year, and however long that took, I had enough days of sleep or whatever months years to process that I finally felt for this three to four week period of full fuel fully leaded and I thought holy crap, I have been fatigued burnt out for years. But for those of you who are still there, I am telling you like it just keeps the lights came back on for me which is amazing. But within this space of trying to be your best, and do your best. I think it's really important to have compassion and understand that these ways that we when we want to do better and use what we know to do better they are expensive from your brain standpoint.

Chantel Prat 40:03
And although I have never seen a scientific experiment on this, I feel as a human being quite confident that beating yourself up about your mistakes does not add to the while. We have to be compassionate with ourselves. And we have to understand, if you are failing over and over, then you are probably setting unrealistic goals for yourself, set them back a little bit. So you can have successes and build your own self worth and self confidence.

Chantel Prat 40:57
And then it's just like, everything that's good for the body is good for the brain sleep, good nutrition, exercise, you might think, oh, I'm not going to the gym, because I'm a failure or whatever. But like if going to the gym is not intrinsically rewarding to you at some costs energy and your brain, you really need to be like sleeping, eating better, be kind to yourself, so that you can have the energy to go to the gym, which will then give you the energy to also like, take another person's perspective, all of those things that are not easy for us. They fight for the massive amounts of glucose that your brain consumes every day.

Jen Rafferty 41:34
Yeah. And that really brings us back to the beginning where the most generous thing you can do for other people is take care of yourself.

Chantel Prat 41:41
That's right. That's right. And it's not how we're wired. And it's not what culture tells us to do. But that's another mistake that I have learned over and over is to say, yes, I'm going to show up for someone else when I can't give, especially if it's like a vulnerable person, I am so motivated to say yes, to this person, they have had a hard time or this or that or the other. But if you're gonna say yes to a person who needs your help, and you're not going to show up for them a hundred percent, and give them the help that they actually need. Are you doing them a favor? The answer is no. Like you have to say yes less often to people who you can truly show up for, like you could actually be doing harm if you say I'm going to help you. But you don't have the energy to do it well.

Jen Rafferty 42:27
Right. And I think we know this cognitively, we say oh, of course we know put our own oxygen mask on before we put someone else in but doing it is totally different. And then doing it when it feels hard is also a totally different thing, too. And I think having conversations like this, bringing it back to the neurobiology, this is your humanity. This is how you're wired, really, I think leverages something important that could hopefully tip someone over the fence and okay, I get it.

Chantel Prat 42:58
And then also think about what I try and do is going back to this whole instructed learning is only part of how we learn others learn from what you do also, right? You can be a mentor in saying I don't have space for that right now. And a person who I really like and respect asked me to participate in this kind of outreach artsy thing recently. And I want to help this person, but I bet and but I have these things going on, you have to say like, where is the spare time in my life? Where's that time coming from? You know.

Chantel Prat 43:29
And so I had a very authentic conversation with the person I said, I really love what you do. And the truth is, when I think about this, it only feels like an obligation for me. And so I need to say no, to me participating in this thing. Because right now there are a lot of passion projects that I really want to have time for. And this would come in between that. So it's not about you as what you're doing is wonderful. But when I think about doing it myself, it feels like this. And I'm honoring that. Which are hard. The person was very supportive. I took the time to explain it. And not just I don't have time right now, because I think they get that all the time. I think you get that all the time.

Jen Rafferty 44:06
Sure. Well, I think that you're right, showing up in that way, I think gives someone else permission to show up that way, too. And the more that we're able to have these conversations openly vulnerably, human to human of, hey, this is what's happening with me right now. And this really has nothing to do with you. Love what you're doing. And that's awesome. I love that journey for you. And this is what feels good for me. I think the more that we can do this, you're right. We learn from each other through that behavior, whether we're in the classroom or whether it's with your own kids watching this with your colleagues or your friends or even your family seems really more sticky.

Chantel Prat 44:48
And there's something even on top of that there's something that I found more powerful and that is there are a lot of things that we choose to do that somehow become encoded as an obligation. I have weekly meetings with all of my students. And I could wake up one morning and go, I have three meetings today. That's three hours, I'm never gonna get back in my life. And I've have had moments like that, right.

Chantel Prat 45:13
But if I remind myself, like, I'm meeting with my students, because I want to know what's going on in their lives, like, I want us to have this connection, this opportunity. And it's a choice. Like, I'm very fortunate, there are a lot of things that I choose to do every day that I could choose not to. And sometimes I do, and my students have told me that they're very thankful that I'm so transparent, like, they don't think I'm Wonder woman. They know if I get sick or stressed or I have something else going on.

Chantel Prat 45:36
And if I give myself permission to cancel one in 20 of those meetings, because I'm not feeling good, it lets them see that I'm a real person. And also the other 19 of 20 meetings, I'm excited to show up too, because I'm like, I chose this. And I think there are times there are things like that in all of our lives, right? I think there are things like that in all of our lives that becomes so that we chose, but that can start to feel like an obligation, whether it's like, oh, this is my book club that started out really fun. And then you're like crap, I gotta read more ePad pages or bacon to like, just hang out my friends or whatever. And it's there are things in our worlds that become like, they start to feel like an obligation. And I think if you give yourself permission to cancel it, and remind yourself that you chose it, you can have the opportunity to be more excited about it.

Jen Rafferty 46:19
Yeah. And you touched on being Wonder Woman, I think briefly, that's this narrative that educators have fallen into of being the superheroes, and that feeds into that narrative of, we have to do everything, because we're martyrs. The selflessness is something that we signed up for. And it's simply not true. And that paradigm is dangerous, not just for your own healthy longevity in your career, but for all of these beautiful young humans looking at you to how to be a human. And so the more we can be transparent about this, the more we can make that generational shift.

Chantel Prat 46:54
Right. Yeah. And that goes back to like, self efficacy and like social comparisons, and it seems so easy, because the all of the struggle is happening in our brains and it's oftentimes and it's invisible to other people. And we seem, oh, we have it all under control. And we have great vacations and our T-shirts are ironed. And it's a lie, right? It's a myth. So at least some people do have great vacations and their T-shirts ironed. I have great vacations, with my T-shirts.

Jen Rafferty 47:18
My T-shirts are not ironed. Maybe they're the study. What's the trade off there?

Chantel Prat 47:24
Yeah, exactly. We're making this our carrot brains are making the same choices here.

Jen Rafferty 47:28
Yeah, for sure.

Jen Rafferty 47:30
So, I do need to ask you the question I asked all of my guests, which is from where you're standing and the work that you do in this world, what is your dream for the future of education?

Chantel Prat 47:40
My dream for the future of education is that we learn to value different things. That we learn to value what each individual brings into the room in terms of their previous experiences and their perspectives. And I think that, instead of, if you just really look at what we say, as good learning and how that actually pans out to making the world a better place, I think we might start to break apart our very narrow view of what success looks like in the classroom.

Chantel Prat 48:11
And I would love a world in which teachers are motivated. Of course, it's not the teachers, it's whoever is supporting whoever's the finding the teachers group of success, right, that the education system is motivated to see children and adults and whoever's being educated for the sort of beautiful different people that they are and that the work is motivating that person to be their best version of themselves.

Chantel Prat 48:39
So I agree in this kind of core common things that we want every citizen to know. But I wish the work was not about demonstrating this on a test, but about exciting that students so that their brains can do what they do best. Just learn about things that they think will be useful to them.

Jen Rafferty 48:58
Yes, more of that.

Jen Rafferty 49:01
Yes, please. I wear rose colored glasses unapologetically on my face. I've shared this many times, especially when people share their dreams. And I really do believe the more we say them out loud, the closer we are to actualizing them. So let's do it. Let's move some.

Chantel Prat 49:16
Yeah. I know in my class, I start like so I taught a neuroscience view class last year. And I started by just applying it to myself was like, okay, well step one, I'm going to let the students choose how they want to demonstrate their knowledge. And that's a pain in the butt from an administrator, it's much easier to give them a multiple choice test. And some students want to do a multiple choice test because that's what they've been trained to do through their whole academic careers.

Chantel Prat 49:39
But like I let them also write an essay on or collage or whatever they want or presentation about their brain and what they learned about themselves or do a project so I gave them, how do you want to show what you know, as just a little starter, at least in the assessment piece, but yeah, I'm trying to walk the walk.

Jen Rafferty 49:57
Yeah, you are. And I do appreciate you being an example for that, and I so appreciate that you shared your time with me and the Take Notes audience today, it's really been a pleasure to get to know you and deeper into the work that you do. Thank you.

Chantel Prat 50:15
Oh, my gosh, thank you. I thank all of you for the work that you do. And importantly for the work we do on ourselves, because it is so easy to turn all that outward and see what's wrong with the world and society and stuff. And it's much harder to love, accept and be kind and patient with ourselves as we continue to be calm, right? Because that's another thing I want to say is like, learning it, knowing, and growing does not stop in the classroom. Like it stops when we're dead, I think. That's my view.

Jen Rafferty 50:47
More science to figure that one out. But before you go, can you share where people can find you and your work? I know you mentioned your website earlier. What's the best place for them to get in touch with you?

Chantel Prat 50:57
Yes, please come to www.chantelprat.com. You can find all my social media handles there., you can play brain games, you can see some of my talks. I think that's a good jumping off point to find out more about me and what I'm doing.

Jen Rafferty 51:18
Awesome. And all those links will be right there in the show notes. So it'd be super easy for people to get in touch. So thank you again so much. And for those of you who loved this episode, which I know you did, make sure that you subscribe, share with a friend, and write a great review and we'll see you next time on Take Notes. Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

The power of vulnerability in leadership. How to build a stronger team with Dr. Walter Polka and Dr. John McKenna

Are you eager to be a leader who truly connects with your team but not sure how to get there?

Many leaders find themselves overwhelmed by the demands of their positions, struggling to connect with their teams and make a positive impact. It's easy to fall into the trap of leading with authority and ego, but this approach often leads to dissatisfaction and disconnection from those we aim to inspire.

In this enlightening episode, we dive into the heart of what truly makes a great leader. Joined by Dr. Walter Polka and Dr. John McKenna seasoned leadership experts from Niagara University, we explore the transformative power of leading with empathy, kindness, and genuine care for others.

Discover why effective leadership is all about building strong relationships, understanding the needs of your team, and being open to feedback. You’ll learn actionable strategies to become more self-aware and reflective, enabling you to embrace vulnerability and foster a culture of teamwork and mutual respect.

If you're ready to transform your leadership style and create a more connected, effective team, tune in to this episode. Let's get started!

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
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Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Dr. Walter Polka:
Dr. Walter Polka has held numerous professional positions throughout his 45 years as an educator. His positions include: high school social studies teacher and advisor for various clubs and organizations as well as an interscholastic coach at Lewiston-Porter High School; Williamsville Central School District social studies/science curriculum coordinator K-12; assistant superintendent for curriculum and instruction and superintendent of schools of the Lewiston-Porter School District.
Since 1970, Dr. Polka has also served as an adjunct professor at various institutions of higher education including Brockport State College, Buffalo State College, Medaille College, Niagara County Community College, Niagara University, SUNY Buffalo and Loyola University in Maryland. Dr. Polka’s full-time university professional responsibilities also included associate professor of educational leadership; doctoral dissertation chair; and doctoral program coordinator in educational leadership at Georgia Southern University. He is currently the leadership and policy doctoral program coordinator and full tenured professor in the professional programs department at Niagara University.

wpolka@niagara.edu

About Dr. John McKenna:
Dr. John McKenna joined Niagara University in 2023 as an Assistant Professor in the Leadership Studies Department after a long and distinguished career in public administration. Before coming to Niagara University, Dr. McKenna served as a public school administrator and educator for over 35 years.
Dr. McKenna has been recognized for his achievements and contributions to the profession with the SAANYS New York State Outstanding Educator of the Year Award, the NYSPTA Advocate in Action Award, a New York State Senate Proclamation for Outstanding Leadership, and a New York State Senate Resolution for Dedication and Service. Additionally, he was recognized with the SUNY at Buffalo Alumni Association’s Distinguished Alumni Achievement Award as well as UB’s Graduate School of Education Distinguished Alumni Award

mckennaleadership.com
JohnMcKenna@McKennaLeadership.com

TRANSCRIPT:

Jen Rafferty 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those fillings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes - Podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are.

Jen Rafferty 00:31
In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Take Notes. I am here today with two incredible people we're gonna be talking about leadership today. With me is Walter Polka and John McKenna from Niagara University. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your time and your talents with us.

Dr. John McKenna 01:01
Thank you for having us. We really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today.

Dr. Walter Polka 01:04
Looking forward to a good conversation with you, Jennifer.

Jen Rafferty 01:08
Same here. So I'd love to just dive in, because I know you to play a big role in the leadership program at Niagara University. And I want to paint a broad picture with broad strokes here about what makes a good leader, there are so many resources, there's so much literature, there are so many personality tests and different things we can take about what our strengths are. But from where you're standing and in the work that you've done. If we were to boil it down, what are the characteristics that make a really good leader?

Dr. John McKenna 01:42
I'll let you go first. Well, because you've had a great background in this, so I'll let you take and then I'll jump on what you say.

Dr. Walter Polka 01:50
All right, and I'll just give you a quick, broad brush response. Leadership is all about relationships, relationships, and more relationships, okay, it's about the individual who either assumes or has been appointed as a leader in an organization to be sure that they develop excellent interpersonal relationships with the people in their organization. They need to have that from a basis of a human relationship, a high touch approach, need to be sure that people in the organization know that they care. We often say in our books that, you know, like students, but employees also they don't really care how much you know, until they know how much you care about them and their work and their organization. And they also have needs that have to be fulfilled, and the leader has to attend to those. But the best way to start attending to him is to be sure you know your people who you work with. And also you need to know yourself. So it's knowing yourself, knowing the people you work with and making sure you attend to relationships.

Dr. John McKenna 03:01
Yeah. I would agree with Walt wholeheartedly. And I'll just add a few things. I think that some of the qualities that I think matter quite a bit are being kind, caring, and empathetic. I think that those three words, you'll hear me say those three words a lot, because they're just baked into what I believe in and what I stand for. And when I think of Stephen Covey's 7 Habits related to that is seek first to understand and then be understood, I think, all good leaders try to do that. And another one of the habits I think are really important is find win-win solutions. Because so often things become adversarial and controversial than if we could sit down and really work together and try to see things from each other's opinion. I really do believe that you can always find win-win solutions to make things move forward in a positive way.

Jen Rafferty 03:50
Yeah, for sure. And, of course, that was a fundamental book in my research and my learning and my growth and development, too. And the work that I'm doing. So I'm glad you brought up that book. I agree with everything that you're saying. And I'm sure you've experienced this yourself from all sorts of ends of the spectrum in the work that you do in this world now, but there are a lot of people out there who really believe that they are great leaders. And it turns out, they're not. So how do we address that self reflective piece? Because you had said one of the last things that you had shared is knowing yourself? Can we go there for a little bit and spend some time of really getting to some concrete strategies and ways to have that real sense of reflection so you can know yourself?

Dr. Walter Polka 04:42
I think that's very important. You need to reflect you need to recognize and I'll go to the work of whosits and Posner and other leadership individuals that leadership can be learned. Okay, you can learn to become. There's a leader in all of us and John's done a lot of work with the organization in terms of the leader in me, for people in schools, students, but that everyone has the potential to be the leader. You need to look at yourself, your personality, what do you like to do, what are your hot buttons and identify how you can modify those who need to modify those to fit into the situation.

Dr. Walter Polka 05:22
Okay, there's situational ethics and situational leadership, you need to know the people in your organization, you need to know the organization, you need to know its mission, its vision, you also need to know its context. And that's what we stressed a lot in the managing yourself and others during crisis times the book that we first did on this topic related to COVID is that you need to know who you are your strengths, and reflect about that. And you're going to take risks in terms of COVID leaders all along the spectrum, principals, superintendents, teachers, people were taking risks in territories that they had no roadmap for, okay? They were in a new era, and they needed to take the risk that they felt comfortable with. But not everyone feels that comfortable with the risk. So you have to know what's your risk level, what's your commitment, your involvement with your organization, so you have to do a lot of self assessment. And I like the Gandhi quote, that you want to be the kind of change that you want to see in the world. If you just take that, again, to turn it into, you want to be the kind of leader that you believe this organization needs at this time.

Dr. John McKenna 06:37
I'll piggyback on there too. And I think that being self reflective, everybody agrees is an important part of being a leader. And every leader thinks they are self reflective, or they are there not everyone seems to think they are. And I reflect on the work of Brene Brown, and she talks about vulnerability, and how you have to have courage to be vulnerable. And that's what I think people in leadership really need the courage to put yourself out there to really take constructive advice and constructive criticism sometimes, and be willing to take that and say, yeah, this is how I can improve and this is how I can be better.

Dr. John McKenna 07:12
And I know I think of the years when I was a building principal, I used to always do an evaluate, I used to have the staff evaluate me. And I did it anonymously. And I'd put it out there. And I'd say I want your feedback, I want to hear what you have to say. And every year I would get this feedback, and some was positive. And some was, this is how you need to improve John. And it was important that I did that because you need to get the honest truth sometimes, and not just with our own lenses, because we always see things, I think we always naturally tend to think that the things we do as leaders are right, and the things we're doing are good. And we need to have those constructive voices out there. And we have to be open. And that's where I like the work of Brene Brown about vulnerability.

Dr. John McKenna 07:12
We need to feel put ourselves out there to be able to accept those types of things, and then make the adjustments necessary to improve and become better. So that's where I think why leadership sometimes is rare in that case is because a lot of folks aren't willing to be vulnerable, to really hear and listen that maybe what they're doing isn't the right and correct thing. But if you really want to be the best leader possible, you have to be willing to take that constructive advice, and then move forward and make yourself better.

Dr. Walter Polka 08:21
Unfortunately, in education, some of our leaders of school districts advocate all of what John said for their followers, or their principals, furthered district level employees and so on. But you know, Jennifer, they don't really practice it on themselves. One of my doctoral students, Jeffrey Rabee, who was superintendent in a couple school districts in Western New York, and during his tenure as an active superintendent did his research on that very topic of reflection of superintendents in New York State in 2014. And he found that was one of the least activities they engaged in. And the follow up data from that over the years has shown it hasn't changed much. We advocated for others. But sometimes it's very hard for us to recognize that we need to do it, we need to do that 360 degree review of what we're doing and when we're doing it.

Jen Rafferty 09:19
Yeah. So I have a couple things that I want to say, because I'm so glad that we went here now, because the work that I do also is really communicating the facts, particularly to leaders but to everybody in the schools that your impact is dependent on your ability to look inward and your own personal growth journey. And a lot of what you're saying really has to do with this idea of dropping your ego and creating a space to be vulnerable. And by doing that, redefining what it means to be a leader and what I particularly enjoy about talking with the two of you is that in the world of superintendents and school leadership happens to be all men, the majority of men, and this idea of being vulnerable, and the this now switch of what it means to be a strong leader, and kind of dropping all of these old ways and old traditions of ego driven leadership.

Jen Rafferty 10:28
And it's really refreshing to hear that coming from the two of you, who are part of that group of people, right, who are in leadership positions. So I'm wondering, for you personally, what is it like? What is the process for you to receive that 360 feedback. Receive a piece of information that might not be a glowing review. And for you to be able to drop your ego enough to say, okay, this is how I'm going to show up as a leader, because this is what my organization actually needs. What does that like for you?

Dr. Walter Polka 11:06
I can start that off just with a hit on what you initially asked. And I've been in the education business for over 55 years now. Okay. So when I was trained, and not just as a teacher, but then certified in New York state, as a superintendent back in 1970, one of the books that were often the references used for the great man theory of leadership, okay. And that was one of the key issues that there are certain people who, and especially men, who have this ability to rise above the rest and be the leader, you know, and those examples came in loud and clear. And I think it obviously took some good self reflection on my part, I know on John's part as well, to say we're in a business that's 80% of the teachers are female, only 20 to 25% of the superintendents are female, we're getting more and more females in the building principalship roles, but there has to be a change in how we look at who the leader is, what are some of their key qualities. And how empathetic are they with the feelings and the beliefs of others.

Dr. Walter Polka 12:23
It's like cultural competency, but it's really gender competency, age cabinets, all of those things pulled together, so that you recognize what are the factors that you need to have in this organization and how are you going to work with these people who put it bluntly are different from you, in many ways, okay, and have different feelings and values and attitudes and how do we address them. For me, as I went through my training, and my experiences initially, as a school leader, it was an important transition, I attribute it to some of the things that were part of my own personal experience. I grew up my mother, father died when I was three and a half, she was a strong willed business person in Niagara Falls, she only had three years of schooling. She really focused on education for me and my brothers, but gave that sense that we need to be well aware of the needs of other people, and that families are different, people are different, and how are we going to react and build a coalition of these different people?

Dr. John McKenna 13:32
Yeah, I was like to say to you, I think too often people mistake bravado and ego for leadership. And what they end up doing is you get these people that are just loud. And these steps come across like they have all the answers. And so often, they lead teams right over a cliff, right? They're not sick, they're in so often you see these stories where they're not successful. And one of the things that I've learned through the years is through teamwork, cooperation, and empowerment. That's how you make the best decisions. When you really get like consensus and build teams and you really working together that gets the best outcomes, because to me, leadership is about what is going to bring about the best results, the best outcomes. And what I've found is when we work together, listen to all people, share the leadership, you always will end up in a better place. And one of the most important things about that is that people own the change. They believe in the change. They know the purpose of why you're doing what you're doing. And then when you have that as your Northstar, you're going to get to where you're supposed to be. But if it's just somebody dictating to you or yelling at you to do something very ineffective, as far as I've seen, in my years of experience.

Dr. Walter Polka 14:46
Too many settings, number that was like those individuals who could yell the loudest, or seem to have the strongest voice or had the whistle blow came from maybe a strong athletic background had that sense of how they could direct the team, they became the administrators. And then they moved up the ladder to the superintendency. And we've all worked, or they were ex military individuals, one of the first principles that I worked for was retired Major from the Air Force, and he was very authoritative, because that was his training and his background.

Dr. Walter Polka 15:23
I think we've come somewhat away from there. But there are still some issues with how people were initially trained, and what their expectations are, we need to continue to focus on self reflection, are you the right fit with your behaviors and your attitudes and values now for this situation, and maybe you need to change because you know what, the context isn't going to change that much. You know, if you're in an urban school, it's going to be an urban school, probably next 20, 30, 50 years, if you're in a really schools probably gonna stay that way. So you have to adjust and see how your leadership will fit takes a lot of reflection.

Dr. John McKenna 16:05
There's a book by Gene Kranz gets steam called Failure is Not an Option. And there's a concept that he puts forward that says the answer is in the room. And I've always believed in that, that, especially I go back to my time as a building principal. And I would work with the staff, there's so many experts and people in this room that know exactly what they're doing. And so often, they're just not tapped into that power of knowledge and experience and passion that they have. And I think that when you tap into the room, then you tap into that power of all of those people in all that they bring, man, oh, man, that's when an organization it's game changing for what you can achieve and accomplish.

Jen Rafferty 16:44
Yes, I totally agree. And I think as a teacher sitting in these meetings, trying to problem solve, knowing that there's a wealth of information and knowledge sitting in this room not being tapped into is frustrating. And I remember very vividly occasions like that you're describing right now. So John, I want to actually stay in this space for a second because both of you what you're saying is so true, and speak so much truth. But I want to know about that moment, when you receive that feedback, when you get a piece of information that someone is unsatisfied with how you particularly are handling something, what is the process for you? And I'm asking this because it's it is I imagine, you know, someone's listening to this in their car on their way to work. And it's like, okay, what you're saying is great, and cognitively, I'm totally with you. But in that moment, when you're alone, reading that piece of feedback on your computer, what is that process for you? And what is something that somebody can do? That's an actionable step, so they can start to be the change that they want to see and be the leader that they can become?

Dr. John McKenna 17:58
I think it's normal. The first time we see something that's negative against us, I know we probably naturally have a recoiling effect to say that person's wrong. I right. I know I'm right. And I think then it's like we have to intentionally be able to coach ourselves to say no way to say I got to take a step back here, I want to look at this with true lenses and find out where the truth lies, because, and then I started to develop the thing of even if, let's say, I disagree with it with this feedback, or whatever, for one reason or another, they still have that feedback. And that's real to them. So I have to do things to correct that. I have to address it. And I have to make sure that we take all types of constructive advice seriously.

Dr. John McKenna 18:41
And I say to even if people have a false perception, I want to help if I see oh, did they get their facts and information wrong, I got to work with them in a way so that we can work cooperatively and collegially. And so that they do understand the just because probably if they're not getting it, it's my fault, that they're not getting it. So I have to do work on my end, to make sure that they're receiving the information in a way that I wanted them to. Because as a leader, I want people to receive the information the right way, I want to send a message, right, I'm the messenger, they're the receiver. And you want to make sure that the message you're sending is received correctly. And if for some reason that's not that's why that feedback is good.

Dr. John McKenna 19:20
Even if you feel I don't know, if I necessarily agree with this, then you have to do more work there, you have to make sure that you get on the same page. And be thankful when you get that because it gives you that opportunity then to work with that person cooperatively to find some middle ground and that because if you don't you know what happens, they then go out and start saying more negative things and negativity starts to grow. So that's why I even got a real positive outlook on receiving this negative feedback because it helps me then do the work that I need to do as a supervisor leader to make things better.

Jen Rafferty 19:54
Yes, yes, yes to all of that. So I have a one follow up question to that. You said coach, my self. And I have a question about for you personally. Is this something you do fully on your own? Or do you also have a community of other leaders, other like minded educators who are also doing this work that you can lean in and lean on?

Dr. John McKenna 20:17
Well thank goodness, there are people like Dr. Poco, my good friend and other colleagues, because it is always very smart to consult with others. And I do that with Dr. Walter all the time, I'll ask him, what do you think, and I know, he's an honest friend. And I know that he'll give me honest advice, sometimes whether I want to hear it or not want to hear it. And I appreciate that. And that makes our friendship strong. But I think he feels the same way about me, if something comes up, he can contact me. And I'll say, well, gee, walt, I kind of agree with this person. And you have to have those honest people who are around you that you can have those constructive conversations with. And it's just so helpful. If you don't, then you know, what happens, you get in a bubble, then you start to just think things the way you think them. And you have to be open minded and get constructive advice from others. And it's good to have a small group of trusted people who you can really talk with.

Dr. Walter Polka 21:10
Yeah, I would like to just go back. And you know, that first reaction and my first reaction in similar situations, is basically, what are these people thinking? What do they know? I am the superintendent. I've got the background experience, I got the education, I got the certification. You people were elected by community, but you know, your knowledge base about these topics? Are you kidding me? And you have that feeling? Are you kidding me? How can you not trust the views that I and my staff have, et cetera, you get that first reaction.

Dr. Walter Polka 21:45
And I know, and that happened to me the first time I was fired as a superintendent, and then some of the other experiences I've had, but you look back on and you say, you don't want to react, the worst thing you can do is to react publicly to that kind of situation. And don't beat up the dog or anything else. But you can, but you're driving home, you got to learn to frame it and forget it as best as you can. You got to know that you're not going to fight back. It's the fight flight syndrome, you're going to have to deal with it. And you got to maintain your composure. That's one of the key thing, your leadership composure, and recognize, okay, they may be right. I may have been wrong here. What else can I do now you become reflected.

Dr. Walter Polka 22:31
But yeah, the first shot is a tough shot, it's a shot to your ego. And it really is a major shot to superintendents, because typically they don't have any other support group to work with. Building principals typically will have other principals in the school district, who they can relate to, or even the other cabinet members will have others that they can relate to the superintendent, it's lonely at the top. And research of conducted across the country with superintendents all verify this very much. So it's they don't want to let their issues become publicly known to their colleagues, as they may be looking for a job in some of those districts in the future, too. Okay, so they've got to be somewhat controlled with how much in their own feelings they let out.

Dr. Walter Polka 23:20
But they need to be sure that they have someone, a critical friend, like John and I were talking about our relationship, a relationship with someone who you can call in another area, to discuss the situation. And it goes back to in my own mind what I did, and I've used that process and tried to help others understand that. The Kubler Ross death and dying steps, the recognize the situation, you need to back off, you're gonna deny it, you got to get to the bargaining stage, you got to say, as John has been identified, maybe there's some truth in that. Maybe I can learn and be a better leader from this kind of feedback. That was a big shock to my system. Yeah.

Dr. John McKenna 24:05
There's a couple of things that really stick out to me, too, that were very helpful to me it really prep some if anyone's watched Ted last. So here's a picture of the John wooden's pyramid of success on his wall. And I love the pyramid of success. Right near the top of the very top is competitive greatness. But right below that is this idea of poise and confidence. And poise is so important. And John Wooden talks about it a lot how important it is for leaders to have employees that you can't overreact. You have to be thoughtful in your responses in what you do. And so many people don't have poise, they just react and they let the emotion get to them and they let emotion rule them. So the best leaders definitely embrace poise before they speak and react.

Dr. John McKenna 24:49
And then another piece of research that really helped me through the years is Daniel Goleman research on emotional intelligence. I remember reading emotional intelligence and thinking I want that I, I want to be able to have that kind of confidence and that type of self reflection. And reading the work of Goldman really helped me to really work on that aspect. And it is work sometimes that we do have to work on being patient and kind and understanding and we have to be intentional with those types of actions. So those are the things that those kinds of resources through the years helped me and say, help me do self improvement and become a better person.

Jen Rafferty 25:26
Yeah, that is the work that makes everything else work. It is work. And from where I stand, it is the most important work because patience and love and kindness outwards does not always come easily when your system is feeling attacked. And it doesn't always come easily to yourself, how often are you giving yourself that patience and love and kindness? And how can we possibly expect ourselves to give it outwards if we're not being kind to ourselves, and that work of emotional intelligence is essential. I think for everyone in education, I mean, the world but particularly in education, especially for leaders.

Dr. John McKenna 26:08
I wanted to mention also that I learned some really great lessons from the research and work of Todd Whitaker, that in his book, what great principals do differently. There's a chapter in here that he's called, treat everyone with respect every day, all the time. And if you read it, it talks about how it's a leaders responsibility to show respect at all times. And that's it's an attentional skill that you have to learn as a leader. Because there's people that are going to want to drag you into arguments and drag you into places where you show disrespect, they want you to show disrespect. So you have to know that you have to intentionally treat everyone with respect and professionalism all the time. It's a responsibility that leaders have.

Dr. John McKenna 26:50
And again, it's one of those things that you learn through the years. But the good thing is, is that you can learn these skills. And personally, I've learned from mistakes through the past where I know I've made some mistakes in the past where I got dragged into some situations where I said, oh my gosh, I'm never doing that again. And you learn and then hopefully, we can share that with Walt Knight was we work with prospective administrators, we try to teach them the skills that, you know, if they're going to be the leaders, they have to exemplify respect, voice, patience, empathy, these are the things that they need to do on a daily basis. I think what you're just talking about, it's a 24/7 responsibility.

Dr. Walter Polka 27:26
Yeah. One of the things that I try to impress upon my students in, in leadership, and in superintendents, certification programs, and so on, is that you accept this position, you need to recognize it's a 24/7 365 day job. It's more than a job, it's your career, it's you, you are the leader, you are the person now sitting in that chair, him talking about the superintendency, chair, etc, you need to protect the sense of the chair, what it stands for what it has meant, historically to the US educational system. And you know, what's going to happen in the future to it, and you need to respect it and honor it. That's kind of the concept that Ronald Reagan had about the presidency, he never would go into the Oval Office without a suit golden attire, because it was the President's office.

Dr. Walter Polka 28:23
But you know, super intent, you don't have to necessarily wear a suit, coat and tie, but you need to be sure you respect the position. And understand is 24/7 365 day position. You're the big fish in the goldfish bowl. And people are always watching you, it doesn't matter if you're in front of a board meeting, doing a faculty meeting, or shopping in a local grocery store, or having dinner with your family out. People are watching. And people are saying that's the superintendent, that's the Director of Personnel that they're identifying you with that role. And you need to recognize that I often tell my students be smart, you know, you might have a big holiday party coming up and you're gonna go buy a box of different wines from the liquor store, do that out of your district, don't let somebody see you walking out of that store with a bat and say, there he goes, again, bulk of us be a heavy drinker this week, or some of those other kinds of you have to be aware. That's an important component for us. And leadership is that sense of composure and that sense of awareness of where you are, you're always in that goldfish bowl and people are watching.

Jen Rafferty 29:40
I have a question about that because I had several leadership roles in my district, and as a person in that role, particularly in the music department, because I was in front of the entire community about 30 times a year for concerts, you know, and board meetings and all of the things. And I felt at the time I feel a little bit differently now a lot differently now. But I felt at the time that there was a sense of performativity on my part, that I needed to play this role of somebody who had this leadership position.

Jen Rafferty 30:18
And that role to me in my minds included things like the way that I dressed, the way that I interacted with people, what I would buy at the grocery store things exactly what you were saying. And I think that there's something too that yes, but I think there's an end. Because the end piece for me is, at the time, I didn't know it. But I felt this incongruence of who I truly was, and could have been as a leader if I were to be authentically me that I limited myself because I was too concerned of what I thought was the expectation of other people. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Walter Polka 31:07
Yeah, well basically, in a book that I did with Pete Liska, and Brian Kelsey, and John knows both of them both former New York superintendents, and we did research related to it, the front cover and the metaphor that we use as a superintendent is like the matador. Matador in the arena. And in the cover, we show a matador and we show the bull coming at him in the matador with a red cape, etc. And then we see over the right hand shoulder is another bowl coming in. Because there's not just one person coming at your leadership. In the arena, there's a number, there's a number of people watching you ready to stampede you, and therefore you're putting on a performance.

Dr. Walter Polka 31:50
Now how can ruin is that performance with a real you. But that's up to you to decide, you know, and determine that's why sometimes maybe you need a break away from it and go hiking in Colorado mountains or something else to refresh your inner self. But there is a performance factor. Now, I happen to like the performance fact. Okay, one of the hardest things for me to do, moving into higher ed was to simply not have face to face classes, and to do more things online. Because I liked the performance, okay, of teaching and of administering. But then what is your inner self? Are you comfortable with that? And you're absolutely right, Jen, everyone has to find that space,

Dr. John McKenna 32:34
You got to be true to your authenticity to Jen, you're absolutely right. And if you find yourself like in a place where you feel in congruence, and I would tell people to that, you know, try to seek and find the place where you can really find your sweet spot and be yourself. Because that's when the best you will come forward. And that's when your qualities and things that really are in you can be unleashed. And I think sometimes we feel like we're in roles, sometimes in places where we're inhibited. And we have to do certain things certain way that are incongruent with what's in our heart and soul. But I think those are those personal decisions that people have to make to see, are they in the right environment? Or, you know, in this journey of life, right? Do we go down? We find different places, right? We find these different places that bring us satisfaction. And sometimes they last for a while. And sometimes they don't last for a while. Like there's a really good book, though, Who Moved My Cheese? Do you ever read that book?

Jen Rafferty 33:26
I've heard of that book. I haven't read it yet, though.

Dr. John McKenna 33:30
It's a great book, and oh, gosh, I forget the author. It'll come to me, I'll get it in a second. But it's really all about sometimes we find these places, right, where we feel satisfied. And then it changes and we have to adapt and change and move to find the cheese like these mice that define that. And life's kind of like that, where we have to find those places where we feel that we're doing our best work that we're being our authentic selves. And we're making the contributions to the world that we feel were good put on this planet to do.

Dr. Walter Polka 33:58
Jen, I had a epiphany, if you will, 56 years ago now after my first year of teaching, when I came home, and I said to my wife, I'm not so sure. I want to do this. I'm not feeling very confident. I was team teaching with some folks. Couple of them were good, but the whole idea of their expectations didn't fit into my style. They were lecture oriented straight rows. That's what they expected. That was the evaluation. That's the plan book, etc. I said I'm not so sure I want to do this. I'm not so sure this is for me. I think you know, I may give it another year. And I'm going to be myself more. And I didn't know more. I don't know how much more that is now when I look back on it. But I was able to break out of that expectation mold and do some of the things that I enjoy doing more cooperative learning with my students, all the rest of those types of things. Now, this is back in 1968. I mean this is I once got in trouble with a custodian because my room was, it was too hard to sweep the floor, they couldn't go north and south between the aisles because there were no aisles. I had them in circles, you know, that sort of thing. So that you give yourself as much of that freedom as you think you need. And it's worked for me.

Dr. John McKenna 35:17
You know, what I think too Jen is, I think there are a lot of people that feel trapped where they work. And I think that they feel like they're in probably dead end jobs, and they feel that they've got so much potential, it's not being used. But there's fear, and they stay in those jobs. And they stay in those positions because of the fear. They're afraid that if they lose this security, then so they make these compromises where they say out, keep my job and my benefits and keep this income because I'm afraid of losing it. Because if I do, I don't know, there's an unknown future out there that I'm afraid of. It takes a lot of courage for folks to be able to say, I do I have something more inside of me, I feel there's this different place. And yet, I'm gonna go and pursue this other dream. And I might have to lose some things right now. But I really believe that if I follow what's in my Northstar, and what's in my heart, I'm gonna end up where I'm supposed to be. And I'm okay with that. But that's where the courage that people have to really have to follow those dreams, you know, and I get it, I understand where they're probably probably most people feel that they have more inside. And I bet you they feel that they're trapped in a certain place. And they wish they had more opportunities to do more things.

Dr. John McKenna 36:25
So I encourage everybody out there to believe in your dreams and go like, follow what's in your heart. And I gotta believe that if you find those things that the good Lord puts in us that those things that just call out to us when we're trying to sleep at night and things like that, and tell us there's other things that we should be following and other things we should do want to tell people to go I encourage, you know, follow that Northstar and see where it leads you. Because I think you can find yourself on a pretty cool adventure.

Dr. Walter Polka 36:51
We use a paraphrase of the Martin Luther King letter from the Birmingham Jail, where he basically said, you can do some things that are politic, you can do some things that are good for your ego, you can do some things that are meaningful in terms of economics, etc. But you need to do things that are right, you need to do the right things. But we would add on you need to do the things that are right for you as well. As well as for your organization, you got to feel good about it. Can you look in the mirror in the morning and look in the mirror in the evening and say I did a good job today, I'm gonna do a good job today. And you know what I did? And thank God for that, you know, and it's also moving along with baby steps to get there too. Let's not try radical changes all of a sudden and take risks that might be too crazy for some people. That's the self reflection. Assess where you're at. And how much stretching can I do.

Dr. John McKenna 37:48
Before you make some dramatic changes, you know, you have a plan right, and be ready to go because income is important. And benefits are important. And there are things in people's lives that you do have, especially you know, if you have young ones and fail and folks are taken care of it's a big responsibility. But I think there's something about following what's calling to you inside your heart and soul. And I hope that everybody takes that Jeremy have figured out what that is because like you're saying that debts when you find your authentic self. That's where I gotta believe the treasure lies.

Jen Rafferty 38:18
Yeah. And I think that really understanding that you deserve happiness, you don't have to earn it, you deserve it, because you woke up this morning. And finding a way for you to choose the things in your life that feel aligned. And the places that can grow and stretch with you as you start to change throughout your life. Giving yourself permission to change and giving yourself permission to again, be vulnerable. Going back to the very beginning of our conversation. Being the example as a leader, as your most authentic self is a part of knowing who you are. And that's really what kind of been circling around this whole conversation. So I love all of it.

Dr. Walter Polka 39:06
It means that your emotions show, so be it. You need to have the tears with others, you need to have the joys with others, you need to have those experiences.

Jen Rafferty 39:16
You're right. I mean if it means you want to have purple highlights in your hair, it means you want to have a tattoo on your arm, you know what I mean? These are the things you know if you want to listen to 90 ska music on your way to work, this is all great and this allows other people to feel safe to be their most authentic selves too in your organization.

Dr. John McKenna 39:38
And I think leadership has a big part to do as too Jen. And Walt and I we try to you know, in our leadership program, we try to develop these types of qualities and the leaders that we're working with that they'll appreciate people's individuality and help people to find, you know, we don't want leaders who are going to like, hold people down. We want to develop leaders who are there to unleash all the powers and talents that are within people. And we want hopefully leaders who can create atmospheres that inspire people and motivate people.

Dr. John McKenna 40:08
And it can happen with the right leadership can unleash so many great talents in people that instead of making people feel like, oh, God, I gotta go to work today. They say, wow, I gotta go to work today. And I think that it's really leadership is a big part of creating those cultures and atmosphere that really helps people feel inspired to wake up and go to work.

Jen Rafferty 40:29
Yeah, so with that being said, this is a question I asked all of my guests. What is your dream for the future of education?

Dr. John McKenna 40:36
Well, it's not just education. It's just kind of a mantra that I've tried to live by is, I want to help create a world where people are kind, caring, and empathetic, where they treat each other way they'd like to be treated, that they believe in a greater good, other than themselves. That's kind of like my motto that I try to live by. So if we can, the things that we do if they help create that type of an atmosphere in the world, that's what I'm behind.

Dr. Walter Polka 41:02
Mine as well, I certainly believe in trying to help others gain a better understanding of our world, of our differences, of the kinds of services that we have. But one of the my key goals for the future is to help others achieve their goals. What I say to all my students is I've had a very robust career. I've enjoyed the journey. Yes, it's had its ups and downs. You know, I've gone through experiences where my hair became grayer, my weight became greater, my height became lower, because of the heavy burdens, all the rest of that stuff. But it's been a great career, I encourage others to do it. And I want to help as many people as I can to achieve their goals, so that we can have a better educated, a better focus community. And like John's talking about.

Dr. John McKenna 41:02
I know when I reflect back on years, you know, when I was a principals, principal for 23 years, I always wanted every day that all of the students and teachers and parents of that school, to think this is the greatest place in the world. I wanted them to think that this was just a wonderful, wonderful place. And I wanted every kid to think their school was the best school on the planet. And I wanted every teacher to think, wow, I love working in this place, and the hope that you can create that type of environment where people have those kinds of feelings.

Jen Rafferty 42:23
Yeah. So good. So after this conversation, I know people are gonna want to learn more about you and the books that you've written, and the presentations you're presenting at and the conferences you're going to where can people learn more about you? And how can they get in touch?

Dr. John McKenna 42:40
Oh that, you know, I think one of the best ways to pre ignite university right to my email is JohnMcKenna@McKennaLeadership.com And I know Walt's, a professor at Niagara as well. And people contact us at the university all the time.

Dr. Walter Polka 42:55
And my email is wpolka@niagara.edu. And, or they can call us, I give my students my phone number. And I tell them, you can call me anytime from 10am to 10pm. You could call me early if you need to. But you know, now that I'm more, more retired, my phone number is 716-425-1860. And you can either phone me or text me.

Dr. John McKenna 43:24
And I've got my own personal website to add me on mckennaleadership.com so people can always reach out to me through that as well. And given phone numbers on 716939034 or 5, give me a call.

Jen Rafferty 43:37
Fantastic. And I know the links to all of that, as well as information about your books will all be in the show notes. So it'd be super easy for people to learn more, get your books, get in touch. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been a really robust and potent conversation. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr. Walter Polka 43:56
Well, we appreciate you too, Jen. It's been wonderful.

Dr. John McKenna 43:58
Thank you, Jen. Appreciate it.

Jen Rafferty 44:00
So if you enjoyed today's episode, which I know that you did, make sure that you write a five star review, share with a friend and we'll see you next time on Take Notes. Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going and empowered educator faculty room on Facebook.

How to build safe spaces for effective communication in education and work with Dr. Teresa Peterson

Have you ever been frustrated by the feeling you're not being heard?

It's a common feeling, especially in schools and at work, and even more so when power plays a role in the relationship dynamic.

But don't worry, we've got a solution for you!

In this episode, I am joined by the incredible Dr. Teresa Peterson from Sarah Noll Wilson Inc. With her deep roots in education, conflict resolution, and leadership coaching, she sheds light on the invisible forces that keep us from using our voices and offers actionable advice for effective communication.

We delve into the importance of building safe spaces and fostering inclusivity, where every individual feels valued and empowered to speak up.

She also discusses the relationship between leadership roles and organizational culture, highlighting how leaders can break communication barriers to cultivate an environment that encourages open dialogue and respects diverse perspectives.

Tune in to this fantastic conversation and discover how we can all start listening better and speaking out with confidence!

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Dr. Teresa:
Dr. Teresa  Peterson is the Director of Learning and Development for Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. Teresa is passionate about applying best practices for learning to make development experiences meaningful, engaging, and accessible for all types of learners. In her role, Teresa co-creates powerful learning content and guides deep research. Teresa holds a Doctorate in Education from the University of Northern Iowa and brings over twenty years of experience teaching, facilitating, and leading. She holds a Conflict Resolution Certificate from Cornell University; she also is trained in Immunity to Change Coaching and Certified in Appreciative Inquiry.  Clients love Teresa’s grounded energy, depth of thought, and ability to listen deeply.

Connect with Dr. Teresa:
Website: https://www.sarahnollwilson.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-peterson-edd

TRANSCRIPT:
Teresa Peterson 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those fillings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes Podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:44
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. Today, I'm here with Dr. Teresa Peterson, who is the director of learning and development for Sarah Noll Wilson, and is passionate about applying best practices for learning to make professional development experiences meaningful, engaging and accessible for all types of learners. Teresa holds a doctorate in education from the University of Northern Iowa and brings over 20 years of experience teaching, facilitating, and leading. She holds a conflict resolution certificate from Cornell University, which is right down the road for me by the way, and is trained in Immunity to Change Coaching and holds a certification and appreciative inquiry. Clients love Teresa's grounded energy, depth of thought and ability to listen deeply. And I'm so excited to wrap today with you on the show. Thank you so much Teresa for being here.

Teresa Peterson 01:37
Thanks. It's a pleasure for all the educators listening. I've got a freshly sharpened icon to roga ready to go. So don't worry, I won't be sharpening my pencil during the podcast.

Jen Rafferty 01:46
Yeah, isn't number two?

Teresa Peterson 01:47
Oh, you got it. I'm ready to roll.

Jen Rafferty 01:49
Great, good. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you especially because I have just spoken with Sarah. I know listeners if you remember Sarah's conversation with me just a few episodes ago, Teresa is a part of Sarah's team. And I was just really excited to dive deep into some of the things that you have to share with your expertise. And one of the things we spoke about, even before we just press record was creating safety around using your voice. Now, this speaks to me in a really deep way, particularly because I was a music teacher for most of my career, quite literally teaching people to feel empowered and inspired to use their voice.

Jen Rafferty 01:49
And yet, the more that I continue on my own personal growth journey, the more I uncover and realize that although it might have seemed like I was using my voice, there were so many places and spaces where I still felt like I was censoring myself and not able to share my authentic truth. Can we start first by talking about where do these stories come from about why we believe we're not actually able to use our voice the way we want to?

Teresa Peterson 03:09
Yeah, that's such a juicy question. And I'm also curious what's coming up for people who are listening along with us, I think it would be a mistake not to start with. Honestly, some of us grew up with messages that our voice was important that we should be silent, that we should defer. I think there are lots of messages about whose voice matters, whose voice is allowed to be the loudest, what that would look like. And be okay for one person would not look like and be okay for another person.

Teresa Peterson 03:39
I think we see a lot of dynamics. And I want to step into this for a moment of as we think about safe spaces for voice, we have to think about what that looks like for everyone and acknowledging that there are folks who have been silenced not by choice, choosing to be silent, but have been silenced for a really long time.

Teresa Peterson 03:40
I'm thinking about people who don't identify as the dominant group. And I'm using quotes here. I work in a lot of leadership spaces where there's still very comfortable certain folks, largely white men, they have appear to have no issue with safe spaces for their voices, about any number of issues. And I see other people censoring by choice sometimes for survival, because the risk might be too high because the reward might not be there at all to use your voice. I think there are a lot of layers there that we could explore, related to voice and power. So that's a lot of directions, right?

Teresa Peterson 04:39
Something that I heard recently and I wanted to make sure I got the author, right. I was listening to Dr. Lindsay Gibson. And she shared something I thought was so interesting, and it just cut to the heart of me related to safety and voice. And she said, because people often fixate on having the right words. So one of the stories we tell ourselves is if I can get the words right, then the other person will listen and common misunderstanding about how people will be heard. And what she said was, if someone really wants to hear what you have to say, the exact words you use won't matter, that their mind and their heart and their ears are open. And that you can navigate from there, you can check for understanding, you can reword things, you can say, actually, I met a little bit more of this, you can ask questions. And the flip side, if someone doesn't care what you have to say, the words you choose won't matter, which I think is so juicy.

Teresa Peterson 05:35
Because sometimes when I'm working with folks, they're just fretting over how do I unlock the right, so it's like an escape room or something. It's like, how do I decipher the special code that will make this person listen. And I think that's where safe spaces are really tricky. Because it's mutual, it has to be two way, it has to be engaged by everyone in there. It's a gift that you give to one another. I could go so many directions with it. And my brains just like fireworks percolating right now, Jen, what comes up for you when you hear especially that idea? Like if someone wants to hear words don't matter, we know they do. But there's more grace in the words right or that we can find, we can take time to find the words that really fit the situation. And, if I don't care, you know, too bad so sad kind of a thing. What comes up for you when you think about that?

Jen Rafferty 06:25
Yeah, I appreciate the question. Because I wrote a whole bunch of things down what we can come back to but I wish I knew that several years ago, I will share a personal example of this things were a little tenuous in my marriage even. And I remember sitting at a diner in New Jersey with one of my best friends. And literally those words that you just said, to find the right words to communicate this thing, this feeling, this problem I was having, this issue that I needed to bring up and she actually said to me, gender are the right words. And of course, I didn't believe her.

Jen Rafferty 07:01
And so my question to you is, can you speak on some of those subconscious censorship spaces that we go into when we start to have that inner dialogue of, I need to find the right words, my voice is going to be heard, I don't want to make somebody else, especially somebody that I care about, or somebody that I work with, or somebody that I love. I don't want to make them upset. Where did those stories come from? And why are they so pervasive?

Teresa Peterson 07:36
I think let's start with I have two kinds of avenues in my mind, and one is, as folks are listening. I like it when people take time to consider their words they're going to choose, especially if stakes are high. So I'm not saying hunt, just go for it on every interaction. Because fun fact, the Gottman Institute, the foremost researchers on relationships, right, the first three minutes of a conversation largely determine the success of the conversation.

Teresa Peterson 08:04
For folks listening, instead of trying to plan or think about everything you want to say for the duration of a conversation. If you want to think ahead about how you'll be invitational or how you'll be honest with yourself, gear, your attention, and your energy toward what's the kickoff? What are those first three minutes? How do I need to show up? I'm an advocate of thinking about what words you want to say, in a thoughtful way, in a way of reflection and planning, not rumination. And I think that we start silencing ourselves when we're in that rumination phase.

Teresa Peterson 08:37
Legitimately, we know there are conversations with very high stakes. We know there are conversations where there could be consequences, right? And again, you can be really thoughtful about how you'll communicate or choose to step away, because sometimes the time isn't right. But the things we see most often with folks are, they know what they want to communicate. But for some reason, they think that is it okay to say, either it's too direct, they're not comfortable expressing a need, right, either because they a lot of this goes back to like how we've been, how we've grown up, how we've been nurtured in society, either that asking for help might be a weakness, or that stating a need would mean you're selfish, right?

Teresa Peterson 09:21
And so there are a lot of assumptions that we make, when we're doing that calculation of silence ourselves. Some that have come up for me many times would be the assumption I make is I don't think anything will change, so I won't bother. So I just silenced myself about something. So something that I would encourage people to think about when you find yourself when you pause, and you're if I could just say what I wanted to say like that little voice. And for me, it shows up this is not a technical term this is a teresis term. What's my little micro thought? What's the thought that I had before the assumption started coming up before I started censoring, roaminating, questioning myself, am I sure? Was that all that stuff? What was my first thought?

Teresa Peterson 10:06
And then as much as folks can, and this is connected to the work of Immunity to Change, which I absolutely love, but what are the assumptions that underpin those behaviors, right? And those can be real juicy, but a lot of it is, a leader would never ask for help, a leader would never admit they don't know so they would censor. I would never ask for time for myself this is one I've wrestled with, right? What are you selfish? I thought you were helpful. Right?

Teresa Peterson 10:31
And so there's usually some layers of assumptions of society, at you don't even know is in there sometimes, right? You have picked it up so subtly, over your upbringing, different workplaces, certainly have different rules about am I allowed to spit ball and idea. One of the things I cherish about Sarah is I can say, I don't have the words right on this one. But this is where I'm at. And then cuz she wants to hear we can negotiate and navigate. And like actually more this than this, we joke sometimes if it's like going to the eye doctor. Better one, better two, right, and you can get close to the idea together, which is beautiful.

Teresa Peterson 11:11
So there's a lot in there that we have to untangle. There's no one size kind of fits all way to think about your censoring. But there are definite connections there to assumptions, different beliefs you're holding, again, the way you've been reared in society, the expectations of your workplace, which I also want to name for folks can be really painful. If you're coming from a team, where you've been, or that's been very comfortable. You had a manager or a leader or principal who was very genuinely interested in lots of voices, and you don't, it is just like slamming a door in your face emotionally, the breakdown is very hard.

Teresa Peterson 11:52
And then the flip side is if you've never seen it, it's very off putting or leaving off putting your guard is up and you're like, why are they asking for my opinion, or I'm not even sure how to engage with this. And sometimes that's what we see, when we're working with teams is a very high functioning team that would have lots of safe space for voice where people have to censor themselves, very little or certainly much less. Sometimes they welcome new team members who aren't coming from those environments and there's a trust disconnect.

Teresa Peterson 12:22
Because they feel like why can't they see how we do things here? And this person's like, when is the punishment coming for saying what you really think? Right? And we've seen the reverse where, you know, clearly a culture of very functional and someone who's used to that comes in, and they get gobbled up. And sometimes unfortunately, they've been hired with the expectation of changing. Oh, yes, single handedly, change is culture with all these good teachings, you're bringing it, right, just a big buzzer.

Jen Rafferty 12:52
Yeah, well, it's so interesting, because it's coming up for me too, is we're specifically talking about teams of adults right now. But there are so many levels and layers to this in a school situation. Because the way that we operate as adults in these teams and these ecosystems between our teachers and TAs, the office staff, the principals and superintendents, they're all these little microcosm that exists in the classroom, that reflects the culture of what's happening in that greater ecosystem.

Jen Rafferty 13:27
That's funny for me, my kids, my own personal children, I allow them space to use their voice. And what's so interesting is that my partner has actually shared with me, Jen, there's a lot of talking back and saying no. And so what's been so beautiful is that we've been able to have this conversation of why is this something that you're choosing to allow? And then for me asking her why is this so triggering for you? We both came to was that we both felt like we couldn't really express ourselves when we were kids. But for me, my choice with my children is to then allow for more of that which causes a little bit of a different dynamic, which is sometimes really annoying and frustrating for me.

Jen Rafferty 14:15
However, I'm encouraged and sees their voice so they're gonna ask me why. And it was for her was like, this is just how it is because this is how I was brought up. And this is how it's supposed to be because we're both very much in this work. We've been able to have these beautiful conversations is it's so interesting that here is this situation. And this is the reason why I've made these choices. This is the reason why I'm responding this way. This is the reason why you're responding this way. Because even in those little family units, they are reflective of how comfortable you are at the adult in using your voice. So, fascinating to see the levels and layers of all of this play out. But particularly in a situation like a school when we're rearing all of these children together.

Teresa Peterson 14:58
And something that Sarah and I were working with a group. And we received a real gift from someone who was mentoring us guiding us along. Amanda Trost and blues, I'll give her a shout out. So I like to give credit where it's due. And one thing she had told us was, as consultants or as outsiders, we experienced the issues, the rubs in the culture, the same way that people who work there full time do, and that we can shine a light on that. And as you were talking, and I was thinking about those dynamics of not only a school, but then the classroom, I was thinking, in my time in public school, the children, the students, whatever age one hundred percent experienced the culture of the school, that classroom fully represented, how much voice would be tolerated, how much flexibility would be tolerated, right?

Teresa Peterson 15:49
I felt like I saw that a lot in terms of not the everyday nuts and bolts of like, where we're going to keep the pencils, but what kind of an environment can be grown, can be nurtured, can be cultivated, and I'm going back to this beautiful point you made with you and your partner, and you have to untangle. Where did this come from? And so I'm going to lean back into this work of Immunity to Change. Part of changing behavior is untangling the hole that those assumptions are those beliefs that you have that are so strong that you don't really realize you're holding on to until you're like, I think I know why this is coming up. Right?

Teresa Peterson 15:49
And that the only way that very few people can just say, aha, that's it, and flip a switch. And now they're behaving differently with that we untangle it and that we one way we untangle that is through experiments, right? And so I'm thinking of you with your kids or me with my kids where I might think, what would happen if I allowed a no. And instead I said, yes, I said, say more about that. Or I've noticed there's a pattern here with the dishwasher. So that's an essential part I think of when people are, again, I want to own that there are people who have been silenced and continue to be silenced, who have been marginalized, right. And like that is different.

Teresa Peterson 17:12
But when we're thinking about folks who maybe aren't fully utilizing their voice, that's kind of where I'm at over here. So things within our control, but we have to start untangling, with experiments like what would happen if I just tolerated that discussion for a minute. And I'm using tolerated with love. Because we're talking about changing deep rooted behaviors. It's not like, oh, what a joy, I'm going to try to do something different. Can I even just tolerate having a moment of doing this differently? Right?

Teresa Peterson 17:41
Some other ways you can experiment, a very safe way, you just like you and your partner, stopping to think, what's the origin story of this for me? Where did this come up? I know what it was, I felt like this growing up. And now I want to try this right, or vice versa. Or spotting it in action is a very powerful. So if you're in the moment, and you feel like I'm choosing to hang back, I'm choosing to stay silent. Or I'm really kind of ruminating on the words I'm going to use. And again, not reflecting on them to make sure they're really what's inside, but ruminating for the sake of pleasing the other person with the words you're gonna use. Where is that coming from?

Teresa Peterson 18:21
So even spotting it in action is a very powerful like call your brain's attention to, I'm doing it right now. Or I did it at the PTO meeting, or fill in the blank, whatever. I love this work of immunity to change because if you have this tangled, kind of not, where do you start pulling? Another beautiful way to describe it is you've got a foot on the gas of wanting to use your voice and you've got a foot on the brake telling you no. And so like you have to figure out where is this foot on the brake coming from.

Jen Rafferty 18:52
Yeah, and I love this idea which aligns so much with the work that I do with empowered educator is exploring these places with beautiful curiosity using words like let's just experiment. And this isn't about hating on yourself because you did it again, and this is like that's so interesting. I did it again. What was happening with me at that moment? What was I thinking? or feeling that led to that choice? And once we start exploring that space with curiosity, that's really when some of these really cool answers come up and come true so that then we can make new decisions.

Teresa Peterson 19:31
I love everything about that. And you're right. For me, it should never be focused on shame. It is only curiosity. And when we think about the brain, we need the most sophisticated parts of our brain plugged in to get underneath of this stuff to do a little housecleaning to open some of the doors in our brain we don't really feel like opening. And that has to come from that place of love. As you were describing it too, I loved it, Jen, it made me think of when you've got a kid in your class, and things haven't been right, and you're just observing, you're just observing, is it every time I turn my back to the board? Is it every time there's a transition right classic example? Or like is it every time there's an announcement things get thrown out, right?

Teresa Peterson 20:17
So apply the same kind of loving observation that you would to a child, or teenager, whatever age, I say child like anyone who's under 25 right now, I feel like it's I don't know. But to any young person in your care that you would use that with, on yourself, right, because I think educators do such a beautiful job of so often looking, and just looking to identify the problem so they can help solve the problem and separating the child from the problem. And I would like to invite them to apply that same logic to themselves and that you are a human. And before we started recording, we talked about how intertwined that can be, but like, you're a human separates all of your behaviors from the essence of you as a person, right. These can be untangled and played with.

Jen Rafferty 21:06
Yeah, we're working with our own neurobiology. And that's really what this is, this isn't you, this is your brain. This is your wiring. This is how things have developed. And what's so beautiful about neuroplasticity is that we can't speak. And so you're not broken, there's nothing wrong with you, you just need to be fix. What we have is this beautiful opportunity for you to be this non-judgmental observer of yourself and ask yourself some questions. Is this behavior actually serving me? Is this same quiet serving me? Is this representing my highest best version of my most authentic self? And the answer is no, then you have choices. And this is really the crux of what we're talking about here.

Teresa Peterson 21:52
Yeah, know I love everything about it. And I think I don't want folks to lose sight of beyond how good it can feel when you work on that stuff for you. The ripple of that is enormous. Whether it's in your home, with your colleagues, with the students in your care, advocating at the legislature, or right, any number of things you might be wanting to do anytime soon. It's so transferable, and the ripple is huge.

Teresa Peterson 22:20
That's such a great point. Gosh, this is something I could chew on for a while. Let me ask just to clarifying question, too. Are you thinking, power and voice through the lens of teams I serve that are not very diverse. And I'm thinking about teams that are very diverse, like, we can talk about it through that lens. So we could also talk about speaking truth to power kind of angle. Like what is coming up for you when you think about?

Jen Rafferty 22:20
Yeah. And so I would be remiss if I didn't now talk about that second prong that you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation about voice and power. Because while we've been talking about this other place for a little while, I think it's important that we include this as part of our conversation today, too. So can you speak on that piece of how we feel about using our voice when power comes into play? And let's be honest, there's power play everywhere we go. So tell us a little bit about how that goes and what we can do to navigate that.

Jen Rafferty 23:24
Yeah, I guess it truth to power for me. I don't know. I guess I don't understand the difference. For me. I'm thinking about like that. So if we're talking about voice and power, there are so many different colors and nuanced to that. But speaking to power, regardless of hierarchy and a work force or diverse dynamic. I imagine they're similar.

Teresa Peterson 23:54
A lot of overlap there. The first thing that's coming up for me is, again, especially when there is a position of formal power and authority. That person is responsible for the tone that is set. That person is responsible for whether voice can be heard, or whether voice will be silenced. And I think for too long, and let's be very honest, for folks who are watching or can only hear me, I'm a Midwest, white, cisgender heterosexual woman, right. I don't know that I am the best spokesperson for this topic based on my lived experience, but I have certainly observed this. And I'm certainly learning a lot from those around me.

Teresa Peterson 24:39
So what's coming up for me is, it is the leaders responsibility for far too long. The expectation has been placed on the folks who have been silenced. And I think we often say historically, but let's be honest, currently, lots of folks are actively being silenced every day, that the own has been on them to like, you just need to do XYZ. The problem is where the power is. So if you are a person in a position of power, you need to be asking yourself, whose voices am I comfortable hearing? And whose voices have I been less comfortable hearing? And let's get real honest about that. Who is allowed to say anything they want to me? And who is not? Right? What are the rewards? And what are the punishments?

Teresa Peterson 25:28
I see this play out a lot in teams where the leader will say, anyone could say anything to me at any time. And then their favorite person says XYZ. And they're like, that's why John's amazing. And then someone else will say something that appears even less confrontational or like less controversial, right less provocative. And what I heard that so beautifully summed this up on a team once was, there are people who can say anything to the leader, and it's fine. And there are folks who can say almost nothing. If you say one thing, you'll get a line through your name, instead of under it, you're done. And that is not that person's responsibility to fix, right.

Teresa Peterson 26:10
And so I want to give lots of loving pushes, that if you are a person in a position of power and authority, even if you are the person within formal power, like who gets to use the microwave first in the break room, you need to interrogate yourself about voice and who is speaking, or how even people are speaking, that's something else that I feel super passionate about from a neurodiverse standpoint is voice is not just what is spoken, this can be what is written, this can be however folks want to communicate, this can be synchronous, it can be asynchronous. So even rethinking what we mean by voice or input, right? Because I've served many teams who I don't do my best thinking on the fly. And I've served many teams where, you know, the window for comments will be open for the next two minutes, and then it's closed forever. Well, my brains just getting warmed up within two minutes.

Teresa Peterson 27:05
So I think as workplaces continue to be incredibly and beautifully more inclusive and diverse, we have to think about how we allow voice to happen, and what we really consider to be voice and it doesn't have to be spoken. But it certainly could be I know, that's one watch out. And I'll give credit to my colleague, Joe Mata, Villanova, Mitchell. I love writing, that's how I best communicate. And she has helped me think about other ways to have voice present, and is pushed on me a little bit about reliance on the written word being a bit of a tie to like a white supremacist hierarchy tool that I was not aware of. For me, that's just how my brain works best.

Teresa Peterson 27:49
And it's pushed me to think about what can voice look like and what can voice look like when someone is ready to share, verbally spoken, and I'm just not ready to respond. And I think this goes back to a little bit of where we started. If someone really wants to hear the method, the words, the time, is far less important than the journey of getting to the understanding versus if I don't really care. I'm back to if you are the person in a position of power authority, who around you can help hold that mirror, or what type of voice is allowed, who can say it, what's tolerated, who was rewarded, who is punished, who is being typecast, that's a great conversation I had this week with someone. I get fired up about it, Jen, and all of our friends listening, I get real fired up on it.

Jen Rafferty 28:40
I can see and I love it when you get fired up about the things that bring you joy it makes for such a rich conversation. And I hear that a lot, too. You know, I hear folks who have shared with me, I've been told so many times that I'm just being too dramatic is I'm overly sensitive. I shouldn't care as much, or I'm being a huge bitch like that comes up a lot, too. And those roles then we are pushed into. And so my question to you, I think you addressed it a little bit in that last piece that you said about who on your team can hold up the mirror for you? Because the truth is, while we can all attempt to hold up a mirror for ourselves. Everybody has blind spots. We just do. That's how it works. And nobody is immune to that. And so dropping your ego enough to ask for help in this is essential to leading a really effective team and space where people feel comfortable. You share to use their voice and however they need to. Can you just share maybe one example of how that conversation can go and asking for help and understanding one's blind spots?

Teresa Peterson 29:58
Yes. So I love the idea of a loving critic, right? That's a term that we hear often. But this is the specific part I want to encourage people. Don't go in with a vague ask about some vague time period, get really focused, I'm working on getting better at, maybe it's making sure every voice is heard in a meeting, we'll just use that as our example. I'm working on getting better at making sure everyone's voice is heard in the meeting. During the meeting on Tuesday, will you keep track of who's speaking up, who needs an invitation, who I deferred to, who I gave two opportunities before anyone else had one invitation to speak, get very micro with what you want people to observe for.

Teresa Peterson 30:46
And the other thing I'll say, think about truly how, if you're committed to growing, the process has to work for you. So think about how you want to receive that feedback from the person. I am a person who likes to take things in and chew on it. Most of the time, an instantaneous debrief would not be my preferred method, I'd be like, can I see what you wrote down or tell me and let me noodle on it. And let's talk tomorrow. Other people would be like, let's get it let's get in here, just like some kind of on the sidelines situation. I did this three times. I didn't ask Maria one time, et cetera. Get very micro, and then ask.

Teresa Peterson 31:25
A beautiful example of this. I don't know if Sarah told this story. This is from work she did with someone she was coaching a very senior leader in an organization who got very rough feedback that there was a gender difference that he was favoring the men on the team and minimizing women on the team. And there was a lot of data. And the first thing he did was own it. He said, I didn't realize I was doing it. I'm not intentionally doing it. But clearly I'm doing it. And I'm committed to getting better at. And so he went in also with a list of. So this is what I'm going to start with, I'm not going to ask women to take notes during the meeting I'm going to, so he went in with some ideas he had and then said, If you catch this, this is how I want you to bring it to me.

Teresa Peterson 32:10
And it wasn't a power play. Like this is how I want you to bring it to me, it was like for me to be really open, come up to me right afterwards. Because for some people, that is the preference. For me, it would be like, plant a seed with me and let me reflect on it. And then I want to come back and have what for me would feel more fruitful. Be very micro. And you're asked that med plans, oh, yeah, I'm gonna learn how to read, oh, you just put it out in the universe. That isn't how anything really happens. And when people bring it to your attention, reward it, recognize it. I misspoke last week. And Jen followed up with me about it. Thank you, Jen. I didn't catch it at the time. So I want to give you a shout out. And then you're onto your agenda. It's that simple.

Jen Rafferty 32:10
Yeah, and powerful. And that's some of the evidence that we get to see about creating safe space. Because I've said this a lot on the podcast, we talk about safe spaces a lot. It's not enough to just say it's a safe space, or to put a sticker on the door and say it's safe space. What is the evidence here? And these tools that we've been uncovering over the past few conversations can be very powerful and actionable. And not just sharing the value of the safe space, but having people receive it and engage in that safe space. So I appreciate you sharing that. So I need to ask, based on this gorgeous conversation, I would love for you to answer the question I asked everybody on the podcast, which is what is your dream for the future of education?

Teresa Peterson 33:42
Now that gave me a little mist, I got a little misty. My dream for the future of education, quite simply would be an absolutely best in class education for every child in the world. Not best relative to where they live. Best period, right? That they have full tummies, that they have the medical care they need, that they see school as a place where they can be themselves whatever that means. Right? Where educators feel cherished, valued, like the actual gyms and society that they are right people don't really understand what that role is. I don't think so.

Teresa Peterson 34:27
I can only dream about how magnificently the world would evolve if every child on the planet and that it was of equal quality for everyone. You know that people didn't feel like they had to move to get something better. They weren't perpetuating cycles of less than education, right. That schools would be fully resourced by the government. That they would not have to have fun runs and donut fundraisers and all sorts of things to get the essential things they need to do their jobs well. And I think I'll close with just going back to that idea of that best in class like a truly world class education.

Teresa Peterson 35:10
Many years ago, I went to a coalition of essential schools conference, and I don't believe that organization exists anymore. But one of the things, they had wonderful principles, but and many of your listeners might be familiar or enjoy that. But the one that has always stuck with me, and I think sticks with me as a parent, and that I can't help but, you know, think about in this conversation is that their goal for every child was that they would learn to use their mind well, right. And for me, that's like, the whole thing. The arts, the sciences, the feelings, the movement, just like everything that is the essence of a human. That's my dream. There it is.

Jen Rafferty 35:50
Yes, let's do it.

Teresa Peterson 35:52
Yeah, right now, I'm ready. My bag is packed.

Jen Rafferty 35:56
So you know what we get to do here. And for those of you listening, who continue to engage in the work of your own personal growth, your impact is directly related to your ability to grow in this way. And we do get closer to our dreams every day when we engage like this. And the more we connect with people like you, Teresa, the more we can actually make this a reality for everyone. So before we go, can you share a little bit about how people can get in touch with you and the work that you do with Sarah?

Teresa Peterson 36:26
Yeah, absolutely. The website is sarahnollwilson.com. You can find me on LinkedIn at Teresa Peterson EdD, you can also find me at Target. Just whatever your local Target is. I'll probably be shopping there. Yeah, I'd love to connect anytime. And truly, if you're listening and you think, would you clarify this? Or how can I apply it to the situation? Please reach out because I'm here to help.

Teresa Peterson 36:26
Yeah, it's great. And everyone on Sarah's team has just been phenomenal. It's been a real pleasure to talk with you and get to know you, Teresa, thank you so much for being on the show.

Teresa Peterson 37:00
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much.

Jen Rafferty 37:03
And for those of you listening, make sure you write a review. Go ahead and tell a friend about this episode. And we will see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty 37:13
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going on Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

How positive language in the classroom elevates learning and support systems with Shauna F. King

Ever wondered how much impact your words have on those listening?

It can be easy to forget the big role that language plays in education. Language affects the students’ behavior, self-confidence, and overall engagement.

To state it directly: words can make or break a student.

In today's episode, I am joined by Shauna King to tackle this very issue. Shauna, once known as the "yelling teacher," has transformed her approach and now uses the power of words to uplift and motivate her students.

Together, we'll dive into the importance of intentional communication, revealing how the right words can set the tone for a hopeful and fair classroom. We'll share classroom management techniques and how educators can lead by example, promoting positive behavior that resonates with them to improve student engagement.

You’ll learn practical strategies to improve teacher-parent communication and create a better support system for the students.

Tune in to learn how to transform your teaching through positive language and join us in shaping a brighter, more inclusive future in education.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Shauna:
Shauna F. King has a talent and passion for connecting with adults who have chosen to serve children. Her energy and experience have led to opportunities to present to national and international audiences. As an education specialist, she has facilitated hundreds of presentations and workshops for schools, churches, and conferences. A self-proclaimed "Yelling Teacher In Recovery," Shauna shares practical and research-based strategies to improve teacher, parent, and student engagement. Her professional experience includes roles as a school climate coach for the University of Maryland Positive Schools Center, school principal, student services specialist, and classroom teacher. Her areas of expertise and passion are fostering student engagement, creating equitable learning environments, and promoting positive student behavior. She has partnered with over 150 schools to improve school climate, student behavior, and student engagement. Through high-impact training and coaching, Shauna assists schools in creating "Classrooms of HOPE," where students are given the will, skill and opportunity to make a difference in the world.

Shauna F. King is the author of Children are Listening: What We Say Matters which offers practical strategies and advice for educators and parents. Her articles, What We Say Matters: The Power of Positive Talk and Transitions with the Brain in Mind, are featured in the Association for Middle-Level Education magazine.

Connect with Shauna:
Website: https://shaunafking.com/
IG: @shaunafking

TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I am here with the incredible Shauna King who has a talent and passion for connecting with adults who have chosen to serve children. Her energy and experience have led to opportunities to present to national and international audiences. A self-proclaimed yelling teacher in recovery, Shauna shares practical and research based strategies to improve teacher, parent, and student engagement. Her professional experiences include roles as a school climate coach for the University of Maryland Positive School Center, a school principal, student services specialist, and a classroom teacher. And her areas of expertise and passion are fostering student engagement, creating equitable learning environments, and promoting positive student behavior. Shauna has partnered with over 150 schools to improve school climate, student behavior, and of course, student engagement. Through high impact training and coaching Shauna assists schools in creating classrooms of hope, where students are given the will, skill, and opportunity to make a difference in this world. Thank you Shauna so much for being here with me in Take Notes!

Shauna King
Thank you so much, Jen, for having me. I'm excited to be here to talk with you. I'm a big fan of your show.

Jen Rafferty
I am a big fan of you. So for those of you listening, I met Shauna at the AMLE Conference, the Association for Mid-level Education. And these people were totally my people. I was a middle school teacher, as most of you know, most of my career. I loved every minute of it, even when it was hard and crazy and weird. And so being in a space with all of these middle school people were my people. And Shauna, I went to your session. And it was like a 15 minute little, little mini session. And I was like, I need to know more. I need to know her. So I'm so glad that we're continuing our conversation.

Shauna King
Jen, I think there's something special about folks who not just teach middle school, but enjoy middle school students, right? There's a unique crazy about us all that, and that was majority of my career was in middle school. I always tell people, I did good time in middle school, I loved it. So yes, it was exciting to meet you and connect with you there.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. And I can't wait to continue this conversation that we started to have. So, one of the things that drew me to the content that you were sharing at that time. And since then, we've talked quite a lot about this, is the power of our language, and how that affects the way that we show up in our schools and the way that our students perceive us, the way we engage with our school community. So can you talk a little bit about setting the stage for what language can do for us both, in hurting us and in helping us.

Shauna King
Yeah, absolutely. And so as you read, I call and joke myself as a yelling teacher in recovery, because when I first started teaching, much of the tone of my connection with these students was loud, in correcting behavior, and even sometimes just getting my point across at head, I had a sense of that I was mad all day long. And just carrying this chip on my shoulder about what I was doing. Now, I really did love middle school, I love my years in the classroom. But I think from an outsider, they wouldn't have been able to tell it. And much of it had to do with the language that I use. But I always think back to language that adults use with us when we were kids. If you think about with children hear from adults, growing up in a lot of my workshops, I asked them, I said what are the messages you remember hearing from adults? And while many adults will say to me, oh, I remember my parents or teachers saying, I'm proud of you, I love you, you can do whatever you put your mind to. Often I get a lot of adults who remember harsher words, harsher language. And that's what sticks out in their mind.

Shauna King
And so I like to ask teachers, how would you just go but if some of your students and say, hey, what's something that your teacher always said? What would it be? And to be honest, for me, my students probably would have been like, "Don't play with me," "Stop that," a lot of No's, a lot of correcting behavior tones. And is that really what I want them to remember? And of course, we've got to do those things too. But I think language or words are seeds, and they're seeds that we're planting in our children, and they actually are planting even our own hearts. And so I'm really passionate about how we can use the words that we use every day to make a difference in the lives of the children that we serve. And even in our own lives, because language is power.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it sure is. And it's so interesting, isn't it the way our brains work with this negativity bias, that it doesn't matter how many wonderful things you might say to someone, but that one negative thing sticks out. And that's the thing that we start to remember. And the words that we use can be powerful. And even hearing what you're saying, right now, I'm reflecting not just on my own teaching career, but also in my parenting, right? How many times do we share with our own kids? No, stop, don't, slow down. And it's not as if we can't obviously correct behaviors that needs to be corrected. But there's tone and there's I'm sure, so many different ways you can say the same thing. So can we talk a little bit about maybe shifting the way that we talked about corrective behaviors or correcting behaviors in a way that can be more empowering?

Shauna King
Absolutely. And just you saying that, I think when you become more reflective, because even whether it's a teacher workshop, or I do parent workshops, as well, sometimes they'll just come to me saying, you know, I just hadn't thought about it, if you had a little ticker tape of every time you said something positive in time, you said something negative, whether it was to your students, or to your children, or I'll go there to a spouse, right? I mean, this is even in relationships. You think that, of course, I'm positive, and I tell them these things. Of course, my children know I love them. Of course, my students know I'm proud of them and want them to be and I believe in them, and that I have this growth mindset for them with them, you know, of course, they have that. But does that really match up with what they're hearing? Every single day?

Shauna King
And there's research that says that we should really do five to one some, say four to one with positive to negative feedback? And are we really doing that? I think many of us and I'm going to speak for myself, believe we're doing it, want to do it. But more often, the negative comes out. And so being intentional. And I had to start doing that. Being intentional about what am I going to say when I see this behavior or what am I going to say at the beginning of my class. And then at the end of the day, what are those structures I'm going to put in place, whether it's a call and response that's positive, what are some of those things that I'm going to put in place that can become rote, so that my brain can remember to go down that neural pathway of okay, do the positive. Because just saying, oh, yeah, believe it doesn't always change the behavior, if it's something that we've always been doing differently. So I try to be real cautious, because like I said, this is the old dumbing game for me. Because I joke with my kids, sometimes I'm like, I have two teenagers. So pray for me. Okay, I'm trying to be more positive, I just did a workshop on trying to be more positive. And you're not making this easy for me. So I'm not trying to be hard on anybody, but something we should be aware of.

Jen Rafferty
Absolutely. Well, a couple of things you said that I want to kind of highlight here. I just had a conversation actually with somebody on the podcast last week about believing something is very different than doing something because a lot of us believe we're doing it. But are we actually doing it? And then we talked about doing it is another thing, but then doing it when it's hard is a totally different thing, too. So can we just pause there for a second? And what kind of things can we speak on about what happens when it does get hard, our kids are activated, our kids are dysregulated and we're triggered. We're feeling dysregulated that's oftentimes when the reactive language comes out, what can we start to do or think about in those moments to navigate that maybe a little bit more gracefully.

Shauna King
Yeah. A couple of things I do. One, I share the power of the pause. Just the power of the pause. Sometimes, and when you begin to become more aware of when I say my emotional pressure gauge begins to go up. And I have these drawings that I'll show to say, where are you feeling? Are you on the low level? Is your temperature gauge getting high? Or are you blowing that thermostat? And when you feel that happening, just pause to learn the power of just being able to take a moment on mindful breath. Because sometimes I think as educators, we think especially when it comes to behavior, we have to respond immediately. And no, we don't. Now, if there's an issue of safety or security of that type of thing. But I'm talking about verbally with things. Sometimes it doesn't have to be addressed at that exact same moment. Because if you're a dysregulated, how can you regulate a student who is dealing with that same type of dysregulation? You can't do that. So one taking the power of the pause.

Shauna King
Two, Daniel Kahneman has a book called Thinking, Fast and Slow. So I didn't realize that there's some automatic snap judgments that we make. So I give this example and I say if as a kid, if I said to my mom, "this isn't fair." It was automatic, she was gonna say, "life's not fair." And some people could probably already hear in their head, those types of things. There's almost statements that if someone says it, we know the response, it's almost call them response. Those may be almost in that fast track system. And if we want to be able to respond to whatever it is, whether its behavior and negative statements like that, in a way that's much more thoughtful, you've got to engage that slow track, and to engage that slow track, that means creating ahead of time.

Shauna King
Okay, the next time someone says, this is what I'm going to do and say, and practicing those types of things, I'm gonna give you one example real quick. My button pusher when I call it a button pusher, this was something a student would say, that would push my button. So taught middle school, students would say, "Ms. King, this is boring." Oh, my gosh, that was like, Are you kidding me? What do you mean this is boring? That will push my buttons. As opposed to flying off the handle, I had to find, what am I going to say. And I created just a couple of statements in there called "graceful exits" that can acknowledge the statement, and then exit out that situation.

Shauna King
Now, they have to be said without sarcasm. So I would say something like, I'm sorry, you feel that way. Let's talk about it later. And I actually, Jen, I'm telling you, I had to stand in a mirror and practice that phrase. I'm sorry, you feel about this. Sorry, you feel that way, let's talk about it later. And to make sure it didn't come out like I'm sorry, you feel that way. You have to get out.

Jen Rafferty
That's a totally different methods, right?

Shauna King
Totally different methods. And to be able to come with how do I want to respectfully, responsibly, and professionally respond to some things even when the student or colleague may have said something that may have been less respectful or responsible, so practicing and engaging that closed system of the brain.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, that practice is essential. Because what we're doing, as you mentioned before, we're creating new neural pathways, we are creating new systems of being. We're literally reprogramming the brain when we do this, so it doesn't become trigger-response or comments-response, there is a conscious awareness of what's going on. So you can actually redesign what's going to happen instead of just going by that default autopilot, which is going to keep you the same and in those low level disempowering stories that are then reaffirmed and reiterated by your language. And you know, you've shared this quote with me, which I absolutely love. Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them. And I think that's one of the things that's so powerful about what we do. Truly, the reason why Empowered Educator exists, is because if we ourselves are not modeling these behaviors, how can we possibly expect our students to do the same? It doesn't matter what we say. It matters what we do. So can you speak a little bit about that? I know you are also the author of this incredible book, Children are Listening, What We Say Matters. Can you speak on that a little bit as to how we can show up better regarding the language that we use?

Shauna King
Yeah, so I'd love to take credit for the quote, but that belongs to James Baldwin, but it's one of my favorites, because it is absolutely true that they model. They do. And so I love to tell, I love to tell teachers, remember, you are a model, the classroom is your runway, and they are watching. I joke about it. But if you think about anybody who's been in the classroom for a little bit knows that kids pay attention to everything. If it's a loose earring, your shoe or anything, they pay attention to everything. And then they also hear us. And so while sometimes we can complain to say, you know what, I don't think kids pay attention to us. Yes, they do. And it's so important that we take that role seriously.

Shauna King
For example, I remember being in a classroom, and I was coaching a teacher. And she was in the middle of her lesson, and she was actually teaching some SEL lesson was going over respect and how we treat people. And the afternoon announcements came on a little bit early, until the principal comes over the PA system and says, I'm jumping in early for our afternoon announcements. And the teacher at that time, oh my gosh, it gets on my nerves, butter rolling their eyes. I was like, so, here was this wonderful lesson on respect and those types of things. And then the kids saw how she was disrespecting the announcements. Now don't get me wrong. I understood because I used to teach directly to those announcements at the end of the day, and that was a little bit frustrating. But as adults with hopefully fully developed frontal lobes, we want to use that impulse control that we've been given that we have to be able to say even when internally we want to deal with something in a negative way that we remember we're on stage and kids are watching cheering and kids see us now, I'm not saying we pretend all the time. But I do think as best as possible, it makes a big difference when kids see us do the right things, even when it's hard. Even when it's challenging, how are we dealing with conflict? How do we deal with it when we're having that tough day? That says so much to our kids because they are watching and they do imitate what we do.

Jen Rafferty
They sure do. And it matters, I think, even especially when it's hard. And I think this really ties in to everything we talked about usually comes back to this one thing is this alignment and congruence, You nodded to that earlier in our conversation. But if we are not walking the walk, as these adults in these spaces, it really doesn't matter what we say. And this embodiment of it is everything, because that SEL story is just gold. Because I think one of the most important messages in all of this is the way that we speak not just to our students and our colleagues and our parents and our spouses, but to ourselves. Because that's really where this all stems from right. It's if we are not being kind and gracious and forgiving, and loving to ourselves, how can we possibly give that in a really genuine sort of way? Because otherwise, it turns into that story of the SEL lesson and the announcements, because we're talking about focusing outward instead of holding up the mirror and focusing inward. And sometimes that is profoundly uncomfortable. So can you talk a little bit about how you walk your clients and the educators you work with through that discomfort?

Shauna King
Yeah. And so one of the things that I like to do is, I always start with me in most workshops, because one of the things I say an engine, I honor the work that you do, because you're honest about it. And so I come in honest, and I say on some level, I need you guys to be better than I was because I made a lot of mistakes. And my mistakes started with some of my internal thoughts about what I said to myself. And the biggest one I know you've said this before, please don't ever say I'm just a teacher. No, you are a life changer. You're a neuroplastician. Right? That deserves a raise right there.

Shauna King
And thinking about the importance of the role that you have, first of all, going into the most noble profession of education, regardless of what others may say, you've got to know that yourself, you are changing lives and brains every day. And so reminding yourself of that, but then also reminding yourself that you're human, which means you will make mistakes. And so when you look back and reflect on each day, and I used in I like to talk about at the end of each day, we shouldn't have a moment of reflection of, what did I do well? And what areas can I still grow? You know, your successes and your struggles, areas of growth. We all know how to do those types of things.

Shauna King
As educators we need to do that. But the big G word is to show yourself some grace. To say you know what, today, Shauna gonna needs my skin and I was a little short with her. But what can I do tomorrow? To maybe reconnect that relationship. What's funny, half the time Shauna had forgotten about especially the middle school kids, but if even I hadn't, still think how can I correct that? But I think as educators, we are often perfectionist, and there is no such thing. And so being able to say can I do better tomorrow than I did today? That's all. Gonna do better tomorrow than I did today. That's all. Just one step. Learn one new thing, do one thing better. But guess what, there's going to be a mistake made tomorrow too, it's part of my day and it's okay.

Shauna King
And so the same grace that we ask teachers to show students, we have to be able to show ourselves and I'm gonna say that even for administrators, when sometimes you have that teacher who you've seen saying something that quite too well to kids, give them the opportunity what was going on with you that day? That's not normally like you. Showing grace from the beginning and some people say that your listeners can't see me but I have on red-colored, red glasses people tell me I have rose-colored glasses a lot, that I see the world through rose-colored glasses. I want to and I think everybody should. Let's see the best in people. Let's see the best in our students and let's see the best in ourselves. I see no harm in that, still see no harm in that and I'm gonna I'm gonna stand on that corner.

Jen Rafferty
My heart is exploding. My eyes got all teary because Shauna, I literally say the same thing. I unapologetically wear rose-colored glasses on my face all the time. I have to. That is a choice that I get to make every day because while that might not be capital T truth, it allows the space for everybody to grow, it allows me the space to grow and do better. Because looking through that cynical lens creates so much constriction and limitations, that is not the world that I want to live in, especially as educators. We owe it to our profession, to be in a space of hope.

Jen Rafferty
And for me, hope and grace are BFFs. They hang out together. And I think there's something to be said about this perfectionism, where I'm going to take it to this macro level, right where so many of us became educators, because we either did really well in school, or because we didn't do well in school. And we want to have a different experience for the next generation kind of thing. And so it's this idea, we have to do everything right, filters into the school structures and systems that exist for our kids. And so this is really what I mean, when I'm talking about embodiment, if the kids are actually watching us say, hey, I made a mistake. And guess what, I didn't die. And it's cool. We're going to correct it today. And I'm going to try better tomorrow, then they have an opportunity to learn how to give them selves grace. It's not because you're telling them, it's okay to mess up. It's because they're watching you mess up and go through the process of realignment. And that's powerful. That's everything.

Shauna King
That absolutely is, Jen, you've hit it right on the head. And that's what, when I say that children are listening, and that they're watching, that's what they're going to stick with, they're going to see how did you handle that situation. It may not have been what they read from you, or what that lesson was from you. It's what they see. And that's in the adults, whether it's the parents or teachers, because life is tough, life is tough. And they know we have challenges and there are days when we may not feel like it, but what are we showing them in spite? Where's that resilience that we have?

Shauna King
And again, resilience is not just saying, you know what, I'm denying that this is hard. It's not. You know, what I can say? This is hard. And yet I can do hard things. And it might be a struggle, and I might need to take a break through the hard things. And okay, then I'm gonna come back. And I might not get through all of it, because it's, but still I keep going. And teaching is hard. I always joke to say, teaching is hard. Anybody who says as easy as doing it wrong, it's work even for those of us who may be doing it for years and love the work that we're doing. I don't know if easy is ever the right word to use for teaching. And so to congratulate yourselves and acknowledge yourself for what you do each and every day is something that we shouldn't always look outward. Because we know we don't always get the acknowledgement from others for the work that we do. So I think as educators, we've got to acknowledge ourselves.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. So let's take a moment right now, for those of you who are listening and celebrate yourself, please think of something that you did that is big or small, doesn't matter. Bring a smile to your face and say, you know, I'm awesome. Like, say it out loud, because it matters. Our language matters. Say it out loud, celebrate yourself. You don't have to wait for somebody else to say good job. You give yourself a gold star.

Shauna King
Yes. You teachers rock, educators rock, principals rock, and we are, you can't see it but we are cheering you on for the work that you do. The lives that you change. You rock and thank you for all that you do.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, yes. You gotta go, star. You gotta go, star. You gotta go, star. Yes. And you know that we have to bring some levity to it, we have to have these moments of self celebration, because this is the stuff that's going to fuel us when it's hard.

Shauna King
Yes, we got to bring our own joy. And we know we're doing this each every day. So yes, I love that. And I think people need to, somebody starts your morning with it, lunchtime break in the teachers lounge or end of the day just yes, I did that.

Jen Rafferty
Yes. So let's talk a little bit now about how do we then bridge the gap between what happens at school to what happens at home. Because I think especially now, post COVID, this type of conversation has gotten louder. So in regards to the work that you do, what kind of strategies are you talking about in your work that really help build that bridge?

Shauna King
Yeah, one of the things that I've been doing, you're right, especially since the pandemic and even during the pandemic, I started doing more workshops, bridging the home in school because we were at home and at school at the same time. And I remember my first workshop was how to do virtual learning without losing your mind. And I was doing it for teachers. But then parents came on the Zoom. And I was like, oh, yeah, they were like we're trying to figure out how to not lose their minds too. And so since then I've been trying to, and I have been connecting with teachers and with parents, because I think we all know that the kids need us, we can't just have them doing this by themselves.

Shauna King
And so I've become very passionate about working with parents who are often very hungry to help their children, sometimes who are struggling in school academically, or sometimes behaviorally. And I think without an intentional reach out from the school, sometimes there can be the, we're working against each other. And I love our little ones. But sometimes they don't always know how to communicate what's happening in school and to the parents like what the teacher did, such as such, and they're using the child as the go between. And the same way, I always tell if parents are divorcing, that's not a good idea to use the child as the person who has the information. But schools and parents should have direct communication and remind each other of our common goals, we want the best for your child, we are on your side, there should be some explicit things that we say together. Otherwise, sometimes I think there can be an assumption on either side that you're working against me.

Shauna King
And so once I have a workshop that say what schools want from you, and what you want from your school, and find that they are the same thing, you want to be able to have your schools, to have what I call classrooms of hope, where you help develop kids have the will, they develop the skills, and they're given the opportunity to thrive, that's regardless of their race, gender, or current level of functioning. That's what parents want, to be able to have a school where they're getting the best place where their child is able to develop into their best selves. That's what schools want to. We are on the same page. But we talk about testing, sometimes parents will think, Oh, you're just trying to do this, or teachers can think, Oh, you're just sending us to send your child to us, and you're not supporting us, those types of things. There has to be intentional communication.

Shauna King
So my workshops often do circle work, where we come together in the circle, teachers and parents and we talk, finding our common desires. We talk about brain knowledge a lot. I talk about working memory, what are some strategies for building executive skills that can be done in schools and can be reinforced at home. Because once we see, it's like a tag team approach, you're in school, and you're in home, and we're all working to develop the child in the best way, I think it works to bridge that gap a little bit more when we're saying, hey, we're on the same team, between eight and three, you're over here, between three and the next day, you're over here. But we are working to help you develop with its character development, reading skills, and literacy, math, whatever it is, we all have a role to play in this. And yeah, I love bringing teachers and parents together to be on what I call. We're coaching the same kid on the same team.

Jen Rafferty
A hundred percent. And again, you know, when they have the reinforcement of the language, and all the places and spaces where they're at, that allows them to reinforce that for themselves even more. And so it's not like you said, mom said, and then dad said, it's this, we're all in alignment here, which is really again, for the best interests of the kids. One other thing before we have to close out this interview already, I want to ask you more about your book. Can you share a little bit more about the message of this book?

Shauna King
Well, I'm glad you asked that. And I have actually an exciting update that just happened with the book. And I'll tell you about that, too. So the book was published in 2022. And it's called Children are Listening: What We Say Matters. And it was based off of the workshop that I've actually been doing probably for the last 8 to 10 years. And in the book, what I talk about is I do a little bit of the examining the language that you currently use. And again, it's for parents and/or teachers, and just being doing some reflective activities. And then seeing what are some of the goals that we want to have with our language. So we talk about late a little bit about labels, because sometimes we use words to label and put kids in boxes, right? And we don't want to do that.

Shauna King
We also talk about the source of our words. Often it comes from things that we are thinking. It starts in the brain. Words don't just form, there's some thoughts that we're having. So it does a little bit of activities and say, what do you think about the students that you serve? What do you think about your child when you first wake up in the morning? For parents, it's like, are you thinking, Oh, my goodness, I just gotta get to school on time. We got to get the lunch, all those freshing things. Are we saying thinking, it's another day and I want my child to have a great day at school. What can I say to them to help facilitate that? And so we're intentional about creating some plans around those things.

Shauna King
We also we examine good job. Good job is easy to say, what does that mean? What does good job mean? And we talk about how to praise our students and give them words that kind of build confidence. They know what they're going to mean. I even delve a little bit into some topics around bias and how some of the words that we use may have inherited some things that we're using bias or stereotype language. And we didn't even realize. I'm very transparent in the book and giving some examples of how even I've been on stage and said things that people at the end of it said, did you hear what you just said? And I had no idea and being willing to learn and adjust our language, because if we're offending someone, we've got to stop.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, but we don't know if you don't know.

Shauna King
But what I always say it's impact of our words, not the intent of our words that matter. Yeah, and even if I say, you know, oh, my gosh, I didn't mean to do that. I'm so sorry. I have to realize that the impact of my words cause harm, I apologize. And I'm going to stop. That's really what the book is about. It's really about giving, whether it's words of gratitude or optimism, or as you said, hope, we want our students to have, our children to have hope, and to be able to see the world in a positive way. And pour these words into them that they can continue to feel and fuel them for their future, when they're thinking about themselves that they can say, affirmations to themselves and then to others. And I think that will really fuel a much better, not just students, but world. If our children are speaking positively about themselves and about others, we need that, don't we?

Jen Rafferty
We need that. That's the whole thing, right? I mean, that's what we're doing. We're changing the world by empowering people to discover what's possible for them. And if we're stuck in these traps of old stories of labels and limitations, and disempowering language, we're never actually going to wake up to what's possible for us.

Shauna King
Yeah, and I'd love to give the listeners just a homework assignment.

Jen Rafferty
Please, we'd love homework.

Shauna King
Yeah, I'm sure everybody loves homework, right? This was fun. I think it just goes to intentionality. And some people may say, I do this already. But tomorrow, whether you're at your workplace, whether you're at home, I want you to be intentional to give at least five words of affirmation, or compliments to people. Or it can be a someone at the target, who you say, Oh, my goodness, I love that hat, something just be intentional, to say at least five positive things to others and see if it changes your mood. See if it changes who you are. I think when we just begin to go through the world, looking for the positive and speaking the positive, it makes a huge change.

Jen Rafferty
A hundred percent. So this might tie in now to my question that I asked everybody on the show, based on our conversation that we've had, based on your work and all of the wonderful things you're putting out into the world, what is your dream for the future of education?

Shauna King
That's a great question, Jen. My dream for the future of education is that every student, no matter their background, race, culture, gender, family background, has the opportunity to develop the skills that can help them to thrive in to be the best that they can be in society. To be happy, and to create a happy world. That might sound Pollyanna, but I'm gonna stick with it.

Jen Rafferty
And you're talking to someone who also wears rose-colored glasses on her face. So I love it. More of that, please. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much for being here, Shauna, I always enjoy talking to you. And before you go, I would love for you to share with the listeners ways for people to learn more about your work, how to get in touch with you, and of course, where they can find the book.

Shauna King
Awesome. So I am Shauna F. King, and everything. So my website is Shauna, S H A U N A F king.com. Or you can just do classroomsofhope.com Social media is the same Shauna F king on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn X, you can find me there and love partnering and connecting with schools and educators who are interested in creating better classrooms of hope.

Jen Rafferty
Thank you so much. All of those links are going to be in the show notes. Make it super easy for people to get in touch. Thank you for your time and your talents. And for all of the beautiful things you're doing in this world. It is so cool to know you and I cannot wait to continue these beautiful conversations.

Shauna King
Absolutely. Jen, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. And I'm sure we'll talk again soon.

Jen Rafferty
I can't wait. And for those of you listening, you love the episode. Go ahead and write a five star review, share with a friend. And we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going on Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

Need a more supportive work culture? How to build it through authentic connections with Sarah Noll Wilson

Feeling stuck in a job where you can't be yourself? Tired of shallow work interactions?

Many of us spend our days in environments where we have to wear masks, playing roles that don't fit us. But what if there was a way to break free from this cycle, to bring your true self to your job, and form genuine relationships?

In this episode, I'm joined by the amazing Sarah Noll Wilson, an expert in emotional intelligence and leadership development, to discuss breaking free from the impersonal corporate culture to embrace authentic leadership and meaningful connections.

Discover how her background in performance arts became her superpower in transforming workplace relationships and leadership styles.

Together, we explore strategies to navigate the often transactional nature of corporate environments, emphasizing the importance of emotional connections and authenticity.

Sarah offers practical advice on how to prepare for and engage in emotionally charged conversations, creating safe spaces for genuine interaction, and fostering an environment where everyone feels valued and understood.

By the end of our conversation, you'll be equipped with the tools to start leading with your authentic voice, building deeper connections, and empowering yourself and others to thrive in any setting.

Tune in now and start your journey towards authentic leadership and fulfilled professional life.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Sarah:
Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. is who you call when you’re ready to do the hard work of leading yourself and leading others.
Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. is on a mission to help leaders build and rebuild teams. Our goal is to empower leaders to understand and honor the beautiful complexity of the humans they serve. We create a safe, honest environment, preparing people to deal with real-world conflict, have more meaningful conversations, and create purposeful relationships. Working with organizations that care deeply about their teams and understand the connection between staff development and organizational success, Sarah Noll Wilson, Inc. specializes in transforming relationships from good to great.
With 15+ years in leadership development, Sarah Noll Wilson earned a Master's Degree from Drake University in Leadership Development and a BA from the University of Northern Iowa in Theatre Performance and Theatre Education. Through her work as an Executive Coach, an in-demand Keynote Speaker, Researcher, Contributor to Harvard Business Review, and Bestselling Author of “Don’t Feed the Elephants”, Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast “Conversations on Conversations”, is certified in Co-Active Coaching, Conversational Intelligence, and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. In addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health. 

Connect with Sarah:
Website: sarahnollwilson.com
X (formerly Twitter): @sarahnollwilson
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sarahnollwilson
YouTube: @SarahNollWilson
Facebook: SarahNollWilsonInc
Instagram: @sarahnollwilson

TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of empowered educator and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I cannot wait to share this conversation with you. I am here today with Sarah Noll Wilson, who is the person who call when you are ready to do the hard work of leading yourself and leading others. Working with organizations that care deeply about their teams and understand the connection between staff development and organizational success. Sarah specializes in transforming relationships from good to great through her work as an executive coach and in demand keynote speaker, researcher, contributor to Harvard Business Review and best selling author of Don't Feed the Elephants.

Jen Rafferty
Sarah helps leaders close the gap between what they intend to do and the actual impact they make. She hosts the podcast Conversations on Conversations is certified in CO active coaching conversational intelligence and is a frequent guest lecturer at universities. And in addition to her work with organizations, Sarah is a passionate advocate for mental health. Sara, thank you so much for being here today.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, thanks for having me, Jen. Excited to be in conversation, continued conversation with you that we're recording now for other people to enjoy.

Jen Rafferty
I know, before we started, we had this very lengthy conversation. And we're definitely going to be continuing after the recording too, because I am enjoying you very much. So I would love to actually talk about one of the things we spoke on before we pressed record. And that's kind of our shared background in theatre and performance and the shift that happened after our training to a world that didn't quite speak the same emotional language. So can you speak on a little bit how that transition happened for you, what you noticed, and how maybe that led to the work you do now.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I spent the better part of my youth plus through college undergraduate in an arts environment, right, focusing on theater performance, theater education. And I needed to get a job where I had my nights free to be able to perform, and I needed insurance because I wasn't in place to be a professional actor, to be honest, nor did I really want to be. I just loved it so much. And so I got a job in insurance. Now keep in mind, I grew up my background is my mom was a stay at home mom and dad was a blue collar oil truck driver. So corporate America was so foreign to me. And the thing that was such a whiplash, it was the language I used with you earlier, is the transactional nature of the relationships, the transactional nature of the conversations, obviously, the transactional nature of the work, particularly in the work that we were doing.

Sarah Noll Wilson
But one of the things I just observed was what we talked about how we connected felt so surface level, and obligatory. Like, I don't know how to describe it other than that. And when I was even interviewed for this position, they asked me the question as a spray 23 year old at the time, it's been some years ago, do you think you can sit still in a cubicle? And I was like, I don't know. Let's try like let's see. But the thing that was part of my journey to where I'm at now, is realizing that even though we are in this sort of machine, that was corporate America, we were still humans in this machine, and deeply, deeply craved connection, deeply craved being seen, deeply craved being supported. And then also, I was always, I'm always one for experimentation. So that's actually part of how I stepped into my work was I became really interested in well, how can we do this training more effectively?

Sarah Noll Wilson
My background in theater education was in teaching theatre, it was using theatre as an educational tool. So I partnered with a lot of schools and teachers to look at their curriculum and go how do we do this more kinesthetically? How do we tap into more senses? How do we bring it more to the body so to speak? And I thought to myself, how could I do this with insurance commission coordinator to me, ah, and low and behold, you can do things more effectively, you can produce a better outcome. But yeah, that was the thing that was most jarring to me was just the surface level gliding past each other type of relationships, and very surface level conversation surface level connections, it just felt very transactional.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, and that is such a far cry from the theatre space. And so to paint a picture for folks who have not been in that sort of environment, can you share some of your takeaways from your memories from being in that space? I mean, for me, I grew up in theater too, since I was eight, I wasn't part of a theatre company. And so being in that environment, when everyone is not only, like you said, just super connected, it's, tell me about your guts kind of thing, you know, and the way that we try on different emotions, we try on different characters, as if we were try on clothes, and we keep the ones we say, yes to the dress for the ones that match the character we're aiming for. And we put the ones that don't to the side for later use. And that embodied emotional experience is one of my big takeaways, I would love to hear a little bit more about some of yours.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Well and even related to that, the way that I always thought about it, and approached acting, for example, was you were just discovering different parts of yourself. It wasn't, yeah, you were showing up in a way that was embodying somebody that wasn't you, so to speak, but ultimately, that came from you, your body, your lived experience, your emotions. And so it was this beautiful, intensive practice and self-awareness. And there was also this incredibly vulnerable and risk taking space, for connection for being intimate with people, not sexual, intimate with people being intimate with people and how you worked with them, and scenes, being intimate with people, and how you did classes together, there was a lot of physical intimacy. Again, not sexual, but a lot of physical intimacy, and a lot of emotional intimacy.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And the other thing that one of the things that I again, I didn't appreciate at the time was the culture of feedback, and how different that was in corporate America and how that's still such a hurdle for most people in most teams. And I was like, I got notes after every show. Anytime I was doing a scene in a class, not only did the teacher give you notes, all of your peers gave you notes. And was it always comfortable? No, but we just built up a resilience and an expectation that we would be told, hey, that worked really well, or that you did kind of miss the mark, or whatever the case is. And it was so normalized. That was a thing that was a real shift for me. But that idea of feedback. The biggest thing for me just was the just like, emotional intimacy with people. I really miss that. When I got into the corporate side. And I think that was part of my success, though, was bringing that into the space and creating a space for other people to step into their wholeness as people. And yeah, that's interesting actually, to think about. But that's definitely part of what opened up my path. But it's also was my superpower a bit, because I was so different from the rest of the folks. I didn't know what a 401k was, I was a theater major. I plan on being poor my whole life. Like we weren't talking about savings plans, we were talking about headshots and resumes and the resumes or not work resumes, it was what kind of roles do I have? And what kind of skills do I have?

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, isn't that funny, I want to go back to what you said about emotional intimacy. Because that emotional intimacy is another way of kind of painting a picture of what's happening right now, with the attempt to create healthy social, emotional learning environments and schools. But where I see it falling short, is it stays at a very intellectual understanding of emotionality and how we express emotion, how we communicate about emotion. And when it all stays in our head, that's actually not where the feelings are, the feelings happen in the body. And so when there's this disconnection, we're actually not able to hit the mark, so to speak, in what we're trying to accomplish. So can you speak a little bit about that maybe transition to creating safe, really safe space is not just because you said it's a safe space, but like an actual safe space to start exploring some of that emotional connection or emotional intimacy as you called it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, I really appreciate your question. It's an invitation for me to reflect on something in a way that I haven't reflected on it before. That point about staying in the head is first I just I'm going to speak to that, because that is one of the most common traps we see in the work we do. And the way we talk about it is people confuse knowing something with doing it. And the confused doing it when it's easy to doing it when it's hard. We can talk about emotions, we can talk about self-awareness, we can talk about emotional regulation, we can talk about setting boundaries, we can talk about holding steady, when things get really hard. And people will sit there and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, we can talk about what it looks like to really hold space for someone. And intellectually people will understand it. But doing it is a much different story.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And so often what we see, especially because in our world, we're working with adults, we're like, typically working with very high achieving accomplished adults, who just stop and go, yeah, yeah, I'm good. And one of the ways I always explore it is that seems to resonate with folks is, you know, I'll ask people who plays an instrument or who's learned a sport. And I'm like, when I played basketball in my younger days said, I didn't read a book on how to play basketball and go, I'm good. When I learned the piano, or the accordion later, like, I didn't take an hour webinar and say, I'm good. They practiced it to the point where it became unconsciously competent, right. And I think that we're missing that. So I just want to name that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
One of the things that was coming up for me, as you said, How did you create that space? What was that? What did that look like? My first career, I tried really hard. But I was in a system that didn't value that. And I was working for leaders who didn't know how to show up in that way. That shifted in my last job before I started my company. And I always say her name whenever I can, because she's no longer with us. But Aaron Barr Phil's was my Chief Human Resource Officer, she had gone through a lot of hard stuff. That was the first time she had gone through cancer. Unfortunately, that's what ended up taking her from us. At too young of an age, she had navigated a number of losses in her own life, she has navigated her own mental health. And so she was at a place when I came on board of wanting to look at development differently.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And so one of the things that set up the work that she and I did together, I think for the great success is I had somebody who was in the position of power and authority and influence, who didn't just believe it was important, but was trying to practice it herself. And we were able to do at the time, what felt like incredibly progressive stuff, whether it was mindfulness training specifically for. We're not just going to intellectually talk about self-awareness and emotional regulation, we're going to really practice what does that look like to be connected to our body? What does that look like when we're in a conflict situation to notice? How do we understand why breathing is so important? Right? Not just because it's important, but understand the biology behind it. And how do we help people connect with their whole selves. That was our model motto was like, don't develop the role, develop the whole and it was like the whole person, right? Like, you know, like, really snap to clarify, because I can get like real like, wait, what? But like, how do we develop the whole person.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And so one of the things that just allowed us to experiment in incredible ways to incredible success was the fact that I had somebody who was not just a champion and a sponsor, but she was right there with me, co-facilitating, co-creating, role modeling, for folks. And so that was part of what contributed to that safety. There's only so much you can do when you don't have the power and authority to, right, we all can influence the people around us at a teacher who I said, be the daisy in the onion tach and other daisies will pop up. And if you want to do systemic change, you just do need somebody or you need the authority to be able to influence on a broader scale. And that was an opportunity, honestly, that changed my life. And it set me on the trajectory to go, whoa, if we can do what we did here. And I can do this with other companies that I want to try to figure out how to do what we did in other places.

Jen Rafferty
That's beautiful. And that's so similar to what we're doing through empowered educator with schools, because it cannot be this top down initiative of okay, guys, we're doing this new mindfulness initiative this year. And everyone's like, no way. How could you possibly put something else on my plate? You're telling me now I have to make time to breathe, that's crazy. I can't do that. You know. And so when we kind of I call it going through the back door when we are empowering people giving permission for people to give themselves permission to feel empowered, in a way that they become the change and that's when ripple effect happens because unless you are walking the walk, nothing changes. And when you mentioned, not just talking about it, because knowing is one thing doing is quite another and doing when it's hard is quite another, you know, we can't just stop there because no one learns everything then continues to say the same, and I am no longer available for that. Because the goal for me is, then by the time they get to corporate, everyone is primed in doing this stuff, so your job that becomes so much easier.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I would love to be irrelevant. That's my goal. I'm like, I don't want to do this work. I want people to be able to show up powerfully for themselves and others. So I'm out of a job. But unfortunately, I have a lot of job security.

Jen Rafferty
For sure. And this is the world that we're in and which is why I think this work, anyone who comes to it is so important, because you then get to be the agent of change. It's not just you, Sarah and me, Jen. It's literally everyone who says yes to themselves in a way that is vulnerable, and beautiful, and really connected to that humanity that we're all missing so much. And like I said earlier is a far cry from the days of theater and being in that emotionally safe space. So in the workplace, a lot of times this work is needed and high conflict situations, a lot of it stems from, as you said, feedback, where for someone who is used to getting notes from people like no big deal, we know it's not attached to our worth or value as a human being. But those are skills that we learned along the way. It wasn't like we reached adulthood and went to the workforce being like, okay, got it. I know, I'm totally worthy. My boss says this, I'm good. You know, we need to learn these skills, right? I wish but we need to learn these skills. And it's something that we consistently dance around. So can you talk a little bit about how this emotional connection emotional intimacy then translates to when we're in this high conflict situation, or even perceived high conflict situation.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Thank you for that delineation, because I might perceive it as oh, no big deal. And I don't realize you've been up the last two nights worried about this conversation, I want to take one quick step back real quickly. And that is to echo that point of these are skills we're not born with. We are ultimately as humans, we're animals that are born for survival and self-protection. And one of the things that's become really, really clear for me, that I try to hold on to, it's not even that people haven't built it. So many people have never been around somebody to know what it could look like. They don't know what a healthy relationship could look like. They don't know what an effective team could look like, where psychological safety actually exist.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have times when I work with teams, or even I go, damn, I've never seen this level of health is this what's possible. And I work with hundreds of teams every year. And so some of it is people, not only do they not know it, they don't even know what good could look like. The thing that's fascinating though, is and this goes for all shapes, sizes, ages, genders, identities, right beliefs, when they experience being seen, being genuinely heard from somebody, it's always profound. And like, that was nice, even if they're uncomfortable with saying that was kind of nice. And so I just want to say that, which is why it's so important that more people do the work because you're able to not only do it for yourself, but you're showing other people this is what's possible of how we can show up.

Sarah Noll Wilson
So now let's go to emotionally charged conversations. It's always interesting when we're working with people or groups, and the thing that they always ask is, what's the right thing to say? What's the right thing? And I was like, there's no such thing as the right thing. I want to get a t-shirt. I'm a big t-shirt girl. So like, I want to get a t-shirt that says it depends. Because I feel like my answer to every question about relationships or communication is, well, it depends. What's your relationship with this person? What's the power dynamic, right? Like there's so many factors, but there's no such thing as the right words because what's right for you might not be right for me, what's right for us as white women might not be right for if we're working with a black colleague or whatever. The language my clients in Hong Kong use are very different than my clients in Washington. And so we have to step away from like, there isn't a script.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And actually my coach Stephanie Chin, I love how she says but there is a tone, right. There is a way of being that can set it up for greater success. And really, if people want to get skillful at being able to step into and navigate those emotionally charged moments and emotionally charged could mean a conflict emotionally charged could also be I'm telling you how much I appreciate you. And that feels so scary for me right now. It requires us to have a super high level of self-awareness so that we can regulate our emotions. So our primitive brain doesn't run off with us. And we have to understand that we cannot stop that primitive brain, that reaction happens way too fast. But we can recover more quickly from it.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And I like the language for myself, and when I'm working with folks is how do I hold steady. And I think of it almost like a buoy like the storm is coming. But the buoy is anchored. And so in order for me to hold steady in a moment, where I'm in a heated debate, where I am having something tough happening to me or said to me, or whatever the case is, and I'm trying to keep my highest functioning part of my brain working, then I have to learn these skills. And what's so tricky, is, building resilience isn't something you do when things are calm. And you don't realize you're building resilience while you're building resilience, like some of it is you're gonna mess up. Some of it is you have to be intentional in those moments to say, okay, I really want to attack you, how do I take a deep breath? How do I maybe say less follow up tomorrow? Or maybe? How do I become aware of when I'm not standing up for myself when I'm not speaking up clearly when I'm not advocating for someone else? Or protecting someone else? And what do I need to do to step into that courage?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, I kind of danced in a lot of areas. But it really is, when I think about the skills we need to navigate conflict. It starts with self-awareness, you have to have that social awareness, that emotional regulation, so that then you can listen differently. So then you can ask questions differently. So then you can communicate differently, and more effectively. That's the foundation you can't do what's right, quote unquote, not that there is a right, but you can't do what's effective. If you haven't taken care of your yourself first.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. And that's the piece that completely gets leapfrogs over. Because when we put a mirror up to ourselves, it can feel profoundly uncomfortable. Especially if this is new to you. And there hasn't been that practice yet. But those times that you're describing that build resilience, don't always feel good. And part of this is, you know, what's happening is I always like to offer this reframe to is when it is difficult, here's a beautiful opportunity for you to learn something about yourself. Nothing's happening to you. What if it is happening for you to in this moment, learn something new about yourself, so that then you can show up differently. And so just for practicality sake for right now, for those people who are listening that oh, great, Sarah, holding steady.

Sarah Noll Wilson
How the hell do I do that?

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. That sounds great. I want some of that. How much does that cost? How do I do that? If this is something that I want to kind of dip a little pinky toe in today?

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, yeah, let's look at a couple of different angles. If you know that you're going into a conversation, like if you have the ability and the space and the awareness that I'm going into a tough conversation, one of the practices that we use and we work on with our clients is what's bigger than this conversation you could stay anchored to. So let's talk about educators. For example, we did a lot of work with some of our school systems in the heat of COVID. When particularly so for folks listening, I'm in Iowa, just for some context, there was a lot of aggression towards educators, there was a lot of vitriol towards educators around COVID precautions. And then now around, what are my kids being taught and related to race, gender, sexuality, all of that. And, and so they were dealing with a lot of heat. And I like, how do we keep showing up for these conversations, when they're not conversations, we're just getting attacked? And one of the practices that was really valuable for them was, how do I stay anchored to something that's bigger than this conversation? And what do I need to resource myself when that starts to get too quiet?

Sarah Noll Wilson
For most educators, no surprise, what's bigger than this conversation with this parent, is that my ultimate goal is to create as much safety for these kids that I'm responsible for. It gives us certain level of power of our steadiness or anchoring whatever you want to use. But if I know this is a tough conversation, and what I'm going to stay connected to is that I love you so dearly. And I want to protect our relationship and that's why this conversation matters. So that is, that's a strategy you can use is how do you stay anchored to what's bigger than this moment or this conversation to keep you anchored in this conversation. So that's just like more of a thinking.

Sarah Noll Wilson
The other thing is, again, when you know you're going into a conversation, how do you prepare for that? So often we see people preparing for a confrontation instead of a conversation. And we know that the first three minutes of any conversation are really the most important. So we do a lot of work with people with what's your opening statement. Not like, what's your argument. But how do you create an invitation to say, hey, can we follow up on that meeting? I want to hear what you have to say, I sort of left that not feeling great. And I'm not sure how you felt? Would you be open to talking to me about that, then there's a couple of things that are really effective about that. Asking the question, would you be open to. Nobody wants to say they're closed.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Don't be like, yeah, making sure that it isn't just I need to tell you how I feel. I want to hear how you feel too, listening is such a superpower. And as an act of persuasion, people don't realize almost right, because most people don't want implementation. They just want to be heard. So the more we can think about, Okay, I'm going into this conversation, What's my goal? What's my strategy? What traps might I fall into, that I have to be aware of? I know, there are certain people that just trigger me because of who they are because of their position. And when I say triggered, I get into real sassy mode. I can get into real like, Oh, you want to go there? All right, now I'm going to cut you because you're being an idiot. Like, that's what comes up for me. And typically, it's some dude that calls me a girl, right? Like like that. Just poof. So I'm like, Okay, Sarah, how do you stay in your bed self? And when is it okay to be like, listen, like, we're not doing that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
The other thing from a visualization. And just like a somatic practice, we have to understand deep breathing is effective, because it's literally massaging our vagus nerve to send messages to our brain to say you're safe. It's okay. Right. So being able to take a deep breath. The other thing that I'll share, and this actually comes from my colleague, Dr. Teresa Peterson, as a way to hold steady, and I love this so much, and I'm not great at it, but I'm trying to be better. Nobody remembers a pause. Nobody remembers when you go, you know, I want to take a moment. Just think about that. Be really thoughtful about what I say. There's a woman that is an amazing author, Elaine Lin Hering. Her book is coming out in March, called Unlearning Silence, might be somebody you want to have on the show. She's incredible. But whenever I'm in conversation with her, she's one of the most measured people and that she always takes a couple moments before she speaks.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And my ADHD brain is like so pained by that, but also inspired by that, but just remember, nobody will remember or pause. They'll remember what you said after that pause, but nobody will remember a pause. So those are just a couple of like, different different types of strategies to help you explore, holding steady in those moments.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, that's beautiful. It's funny. There's someone on my team, also Jillian Polasko. I call it the Polasko pause. Oh, I love it. She's also a master at the pause, edit inspiring for me to remember to do that, because my brain also is alright, let's go. And it is so valuable. Those pieces of information that you just gave are so incredibly important and actionable. Today, there's nothing that is unattainable for those people who are listening right now. Give it a try.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Here's an even simpler one. Sometimes I do this is I literally just when I can feel my heart racing, when I can tell that I'm wanting to shrink, or I'm wanting to grow and attack. I literally just this is for me anyway. I just go hold steady. And I try to imagine my feet just being secured to the ground. Just hold steady, Sarah. That's it. I'll just be like, hold steady, hold steady, hold steady, say more about why you feel this way. Right. Tell me more. And that's something for me anyway, that has become a really important practice, especially when I'm in situations where I'm receiving something really hard, or I'm having to deliver something really hard.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, and that visualization is so powerful, you know, our brains are so much more powerful than we give them credit for. And we have so much autonomy in how we navigate our brain that when we bring it back to this is really just your biology and it all comes down to safety. If your nervous system does not feel safe, you are unable to behave and action in a way that is aligned because you're in survival mode. And it's not as obvious anymore. We're not being chased by bears and saber toothed tigers. It's emails and difficult conversations and Instagram and the news and your kids not putting away their laundry.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Or your friend not responding to a text and you're like oh, she mad at me. What is that? And we have to understand a couple of things. A stress brain is a brain that can't trust, it's super hard for us to create trust with ourselves and other people when we're in that that hijacked flooded state. And we default to our like most well laid behaviors under stress, which are usually behaviors we've learned as children, hey, when we're under stress, we're just never going to show up at our best, like, we just kind of show up as our worst selves in those moments. Because again, we are just in protection mode. And even just understanding that that's why I'm such a big proponent of people understanding the amygdala is because it's like that person, you are not being difficult. You are just so flooded and dysregulated. And that doesn't excuse your behavior. But it helps me understand and go, Ah, okay, we're not going to have this conversation and the next half an hour, because I can see those hormones like rising on your face, or I can feel it in myself. Let's come back tomorrow. So that's like an important part of that as well.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. And it is that understanding because you're right, it does not excuse for behavior. But when we understand that this is just a part of our humanity, we give ourselves grace, and other people grace. But you said something really interesting that that struck me that I want to go back to you said we can't trust when we're in the state of protection. And specifically, you said, self trust. Can you talk more about that?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I mean, when our protection mechanisms are fired off, whether it's a real threat, imagined threat, an anticipatory threat, we know that we physically lose access to the highest functioning parts of our brain, we lose access to our prefrontal cortex, our ability to be empathetic, our ability to listen, our ability to be creative, our ability to problem solve and be rational, right? Like when I say we lose it, it's not a choice, we just literally don't have electrical activity as much as when we're fully present. And we don't have all those hormones. And sometimes that I know, for myself anyway, and I see this in clients is when you're under such a chronic state of stress, and whether that is self-induced, or internal or external, I see, it can manifest in doubt, I can see that it can manifest in low sense of self, low confidence, right, I experienced it too.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I know that I don't think as well about myself and my ability, when I'm in a space of chronic stress, here's how it often shows up, especially if you're working in a situation with colleagues or boss that is harmful or toxic. Or you're being gaslit or whatever is like it can be really easy. For some people, let me be really explicit here. It can be easy for some people to internalize that and then to doubt themselves in it. And so how do that's also an opportunity for us to hold steady, right? Like, how do we recognize. I have value and I'm valuable, regardless of how other people view me right now. But I think that trusting your intuition, trusting your ability, trusting, right, just trusting yourself can decrease in those moments as well. Because your body is just what do we need to do to protect ourselves. And sometimes what we've learned is, I'll protect myself by beating myself up.

Jen Rafferty
Yes. Oh, that hit kind of hit me too.

Sarah Noll Wilson
A little bit like I'm a little misty talking about it. And I often see it more with women than men. It's not that I don't see it with men, but I definitely see it. And that can get into a whole another conversation.

Jen Rafferty
Sure, yes, but part two, right. I think it's the same, but it manifests differently. It's expressed differently. And that's a really beautiful moment, then and another opportunity to get really curious about yourself, hey, I've been feeling this way. That's so interesting. What needs to happen right now so that I can return to the place that feels really good and yummy, because you deserve to feel good and yummy all of the time. You are a gift to this world. And we've just been taught and told explicitly and implicitly that we're not and we forget, really who we are, especially in those moments. And when it happens day after day, year after year, there's a lot of unlearning and remembering that gets to happen if you choose it, like red pill or blue pill.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Once you see it, you don't unsee it. I love your language that you use. And that is language that I use is isn't that interesting like that. When I first learned about mindfulness when I developed my panic disorder about 10 years ago, which now I actually know is OCD, but it was misdiagnosed. I was having panic attacks just on the regular and part of what helped me develop through it was how do I ride these waves instead I fight them. Because that's really the way we, the best way to navigate anxiety is not to try to dismiss it or get away from it. But it's actually to be present with it and realize I can handle this. It's temporary, it'll pass. And it was always like, oh, isn't that interesting? It a genuine curious place of interesting. I see you brain like I have a lot of conversations with myself of just Oh, that's interesting, Sarah, that you had this reaction, that that's interesting that you felt you compared yourself to this person. And now not interesting how you feel worse, because you compared yourself just that being our motto is very much be chronically curious. And fun fact about curiosities.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Curiosity lives in our highest functioning part of our brain. So when we can start to activate it, it actually like calms down that amygdala sometimes. But I just wanted to, like echo that language of for folks who maybe are listening or like, I don't know how to do this. What does it look like to just have a moment ago? That was an interesting reaction, even if you can't catch it in the moment. So I wanted to just echo that, because that was such a key for me. And I love that when you said that, I was like that. Yeah, you're my people.

Jen Rafferty
Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah. And it's that non judgement space, where, you know, like you just said, curiosity comes from that highest place judgment, doesn't judgment comes from that place of fear, and mistrust. And they can't coexist. So when you have a moment of awareness of the judgment, whether outwardly or self-judgment, consciously replacing that with curiosity becomes the antidote.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah. And it's a practice, it's, again, it's doing the scales to learn the instrument. I was working with a client once it was a gentleman, and he was like, I just don't feel anything. And I was like the YouTube, you've just been culturally conditioned to not be in touch with it. And so one of the exercises we did that was quite profound for him was, we just set a reminder to pop up randomly, to just take a moment. And in this moment, go, how do I feel? What am I thinking? What do I notice? So that it wasn't when it was hard? It was mundane, like, Oh, interesting. I'm a little tired right now. And I hadn't realized I was tired, or I'm feeling really good right now. I'm feeling happy, or yeah, I'm down today. And so again, that's part of that building, that curiosity has to happen in the small moments so that it can show up when it's hard.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, I describe it often as we're going to the gym, and you get to that moment, you've been training for this whole day, you know, it's like, you're good, you're good to go.

Sarah Noll Wilson
You can hold that plank, baby, like you can do it. I'm working on that plan, you can do it.

Jen Rafferty
Yes. But in the meantime, I do need to ask you now the same question that I asked all of my guests, which is, from your perspective, keeping in mind this beautiful conversation that we had, what is your dream for the future of education?

Sarah Noll Wilson
I have a lot of feels as I think about that. You know, as I shared, I have a lot of family and education, I have a lot of investment in education, and that the initial words that come up, for me, I want education to be safe again, and safe for lots of reasons, but physically safe. I want educators to have freedom, there's so many great teachers who know how to create a great safe learning environment and can't because they have to follow such a strict curriculum that is so often created by people who don't actually understand how learning works. So like, that's what I mean by freedom.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And one of the things that I see is, so much of our education system in America is so focused on a certain way of being, a certain way of listening and setting and paying attention and regurgitating information. And I know there are schools that are doing really creative stuff and challenging that, but that's still fairly the norm. And then they get into the workplace. And this isn't just like a generational thing. This was true of us too. Then it's we're asking them to be innovative. We're asking them to take risks. We're asking them to be okay that yeah, you we're not going to get an A on every test or whatever. They just how do we continue to rethink what kids are learning and how they're learning to actually set them up for greater success beyond just like, an intellectual like critical thinking, emotional thinking.

Sarah Noll Wilson
And again, I know this is already happening. And it's not happening fast enough. And that like, the other thing I'll say, is like the kids have more time to play. There's just so much rigor and there's so much value in unstructured play. And we know that there's a connection between that and like, the lower resilience we're seeing in young people, right? They don't have the moments to have to negotiate with each other, but like, I want everyone to feel safe. I want them to be able to be safe. I want them to be able to be themselves, whatever that is and to be able to learn in ways that best serve them.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, all of that.

Sarah Noll Wilson
That's a really great question. Thank you for that.

Jen Rafferty
It is my favorite question. And as an unapologetic optimist, I really do believe that the more that we say our dreams and share them out loud, the closer we are to having them become our reality. And it's a beautiful question and everyone answers it a little bit differently and I get emotional hearing other people's dreams about this, because if and when they do come true, this world is going to be so beautiful.

Sarah Noll Wilson
We have so much potential. We have so much potential to be really incredible. And yeah, no, thank you for that.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, you're so welcome. And something that's coming up for me now that I felt compelled to share I've been playing around with there's been this thing floating around. Every once in a while it pops up this these six word autobiographies. Have you seen this. And a dear friend of mine is an English teacher, sixth grade English teacher. And we match it was one of my first jobs almost 20 years ago at this point. And she did this exercise with her kids than the sixth graders. And one of them wrote something that still stays with me every day. And I get choked up even thinking about this, but it's relevant to what you just said. His autobiography was just a shadow of my potential. I think about that often, especially when we're talking about our dreams like this. Because while on a micro level, I get to remember that every day about myself, there's so much more. We're just warming up on this macro systems level. There's so much of available. And if we keep moving in the right direction, collectively, we'll get there.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, life's just, it's better. It's better when you're open. It's better when you can connect. It's better when you can be with like, it's just that's how I feel whenever I'm in conversation or relationship with somebody that's like nourishing. It's just, life is so much better or we can have real conversations and all of that.

Jen Rafferty
And that certainly was what this was for me. So thank you for this nourishing conversation Sarah. Before we go, I would love for you to share with the listeners how they can get in touch with you and learn more about your work.

Sarah Noll Wilson
Yeah, our website is my name, sarahnollwilson.com but we are a company of many individuals now. And we're really passionate about helping leaders people better. My DMS are always open as well. LinkedIn is a good place to connect with me. But yeah, sarahnollwilson.com.

Jen Rafferty
Awesome. And all those links, including the link to your book will be in the show notes that people will have a really easy time just clicking and learning some more. So thank you so much for your time and your talents. I really appreciate you spending your morning with me.

Sarah Noll Wilson
I gotcha. Thanks, Jen.

Jen Rafferty
And if you love today's episode, which I know you did, go ahead and write a five star review, share with a friend and we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

How to create a better work-life balance for dads in leadership roles with Larry Dake and Jeff Evener

Feeling stuck in the endless cycle of work, family responsibilities, and personal growth?

Many dads find themselves caught in struggling to balance their professional ambitions with the demands of fatherhood. It's a juggle that often leaves little room for self-care, leading to stress and burnout.

But what if there was a way to break free from this pattern, to find fulfillment in both your career and family life?

In today’s episode, we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in their fields. Guests, Jeff Evener and Larry Dake, co-authors of "Dads, Leaders, and Father Figures," share their personal journeys of redefining success and finding balance.

From the birth of a child during the writing of their book to a life-altering health scare, their stories shed light on the pressures men face and the transformative power of vulnerability in leadership.

You’ll learn practical tips for self-care and setting healthy boundaries, strategies for managing the pressures of fatherhood and professional leadership. How to redefine success in alignment with personal values and well-being.

Discover the secrets to being a great dad and a great leader, without sacrificing one for the other.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Jeff:
Jeff Evener is a husband, father of 3, former Mayor, and current Assistant Superintendent at Homer Central School District. He is the co-author of Dads, Leaders, & Father Figures: Creating Influence & Legacy for a Lifetime

About Dr. Larry:
Dr. Larry Dake is the Superintendent of Schools in the Chenango Valley Central School District in upstate NY and has served as a teacher, coach, curriculum coordinator, principal, and Assistant Superintendent previously. He and his wife, Kelly, an elementary reading teacher, have three children and live in Endwell, NY, in the Binghamton area, about an hour south of Syracuse.

Learn more about their book “Dads, Leaders, and Father Figures”: dadsleadersandfatherfigures.com

TRANSCRIPT:
SPEAKERS
Larry Dake, Jen Rafferty, Jeff Evener

Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes podcast. Where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former Music Teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, Mom of two, and Founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this. Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I am so excited to have this conversation today with Jeff Evener and Larry Dake. Thank you so much for being here, both of you.

That's a pleasure.

Great, thank you. Thank you for having us.

I would love to just dive in to your work because I think it's something that we don't get a chance to talk about very often. You both were have been the co-author of this fabulous book called Dads, Leaders, and Father Figures. And what was so interesting to me about this particular topic is moms get a lot of attention when we're juggling everything- work, home, career, life, basketball practice, and singing lessons. Dads don't get as much of that spotlight of the juggle that happen. So I was really intrigued to hear your take on this. And I'd love to know a little bit about how this started. Why was this something that you felt called to write a book about?

I think the book has different entry points, depending on where you are in life. We're all at different parts of our lives, fatherhood journeys, and leadership journeys. I think it goes back to me when we all first met for the first time, right after the fourth of July in Syracuse, New York. But we all presented our chapter and we could categorize them. And that's really what became the book. And I think we could resonate with so many of each other's stories. And I think as folks read this, they'll find something to resonate in there as well. I mean, there's moments of joy, discovery, frustration, at different parts of our careers. Not just in terms of our leadership, but our journey to these positions. And so I know we all bring different experiences and perspectives to the table, not just the four of us, but many of the guest authors that we also had write a chapter. And I don't know if it's the kind of book that you read a cover to cover, instead of just finding the places that speak to you. And then kind of going from there.

What Larry said was kind of hit home with me is that I've never really thought about this. But being a leader and being a father, being a father figure to the others. It's seasonal, right? You have seasons where things are going great and then you have seasons where it's not so great. And you got to adjust and you got to adapt, and you got to be intentional about those. So I think sharing that, we pride ourselves on being great at what we do. Not everyday for Jeff Evener am I a great father. Not every day am I a great leader. Not every day am I a great father figure because I tell you, getting the kids ready for school this morning alone was a very difficult morning in the Abner household. But it's not always like that, of course. But it's seasonal. And I think the very important message that we're trying to share is that, in the seasons of life you're going to be good in some areas and you're not going to be good in some other areas.

Let's stay there and talk about that, because that is something that it's not forthcoming. It's almost like a bait and switch, right. Where it's okay. Here's what your life is gonna look like, you're going to be a dad, and you're going to be a leader, and you're going to be husband, and everything's great. And the truth of it is that it's messy. And there are seasons, and there are places where we fall down on our face, because of course, we know that's where the lessons are. But those aren't the times it's given a whole lot of attention. And from the work that I do, there's tends to be a whole lot of shame involved with that piece of our lives also that we don't talk about. So I would love to know how you have on your own journeys, realize that these dips, and these seasons, not only are essential to the journey, but they need to be celebrated just like the high peaks and shared. So we normalize it for everybody. What was that like for you to discover that on your own?

I think a lot of learning to be comfortable with being vulnerable with myself and realizing that I'm not going to be able to be perfect all the time. I think having been in a job was as well, a very young administrator, you feel this need to really prove yourself. And to be at ever, be at this, and be at that. There are certainly times when that happens. But then there's also times where setting those boundaries is really important as well. And I think just being vulnerable enough to realize like what you're experiencing and what you're facing and maybe you're guilty tonight because you're not at home but you know that on Saturday, you're gonna be able to spend your entire day with your family.

I think for me, it was sort of coming to that recognition of trying to be balanced about balance. And that's a major topic that there's several stories on in the book is how do you sort of navigate that? And there's no right answer, like this book is not here's four guys, you got to figure it out. I think it's more like there's four guys that are probably just like you reading the book that are trying to figure it out on a day by day basis, or a month by month basis. So I think he's trying to be balanced about it and being vulnerable. That speaking for me certainly was helpful.

Yeah. And that vulnerability, therein lies our connectedness, in my opinion, right? I read a book one time, both John C. Maxwell. And Jen, if you know me well enough, I always bring up John C. Maxwell. But sometimes you win, sometimes you learn, right? Those are only two options. You can't let failure. If I let failure overtake my life, I'd never be where I'm at sure I wouldn't have the family I have, I wouldn't have the wife I have, I won't have anything in my life that resembles what I have. Now, if I let my failures, my mistakes, and my heartaches, run my path or govern my path, right. And this what I learned from those mistakes. And then what really was a great learning experience for me, and I knew this book was going to be so meaningful was reading Larry's chapters in draft form leading reading Andrew's and reading Kevin's and learning from them as I'm a father of the youngest set of kids of us, four.

So moving forward, this book is becoming like a guide for me. How to deal with a soon to be 8 year old, a soon to be 6 year old girl that eventually be a 12 year old, eventually a 20 year old. These guys are living this right now. So like Larry said, sharing that journey of our mistakes and learning from those, sharing those, it's the vulnerability which I think makes the greatest leaders in the world fail multiple times. But they're humble enough to learn from their mistakes and share their mistakes.

Yeah, so my question then is, we have this societal pressure for men, particularly to as you said, prove yourself consistently, whatever that might mean, whatever story you subscribe to, or belief you might have about what that looks like. And so reconciling that with understanding cognitively, that vulnerability is important for leadership, at the same time wrestling back and forth, and oscillating, perhaps, between this idea of proving yourself with toughness and hustle and a front, while knowing about this strength in vulnerability, how have you discovered or how have you seen other men in education reconcile with these two opposing forces?

Yeah, I wasn't saying one way that I've seen it not work, because I've seen leaders take on positions that maybe weren't the best fit for them at that time in their life. And I know when I first became an administrator at 30, thinking that I knew everything, was going to move right up the chain, and all these kinds of things, it took some time to realize that's not the paradigm that at the end of the day is going to ultimately make me happy. All of those things are kind of shiny objects. And what I've come to realize is that I'm no more happier sitting here as a superintendent that I was when I was a teacher, right.

In fact, that a lot of days is probably the opposite. Because there's just something pure about being in that classroom that you lose, you do lose when you become an administrator, and you become a little farther removed from it perhaps quickly at a district office position. So I think that paradigm of, if I could just get exposition I'll be happy, is one that I've learned is really false. And really what that happiness entails when you go home again today, and Jeff's a great example of this, too. Our kids have really no idea what we do on a daily basis. And so they're just happy that we're home. And it's taken me I would say, personally, a wild. So you set that ego aside and say, that's not how I'm going to measure guess by I think when you're young, and when you see everyone else possibly doing, I'll give you a great example.

I teach them the BU Educational Program. And just when I came through my program, it would never have occurred to me to apply for a job before I was done with my program and certified. But you see it now people are getting positions, either right when they're done, or before they're done and I had a conversation with a gentleman who's finishing up the program yesterday, who is feeling some pressure to apply for a position that he doesn't really want. But I think he's feeling that external pressure of this person got a job and this person got a job to say to him, if it's not the right fit, you will not be happy. Ultimately, you will not be happy. And I think because it's so easy to share our successes on social media, without any context, or any context at all, any nuance. It looks like everyone else is has it figured out. In reality, they don't any more than we do. So I think it's taken some time to get there. But I think that it is really important for our entire life professional and personal.

And that's Larry, you mentioned ego, right. And as I progressed through my career, yes, I still see some egos from men, specifically, since we're talking about dads, leaders, and father figures. They're always looking for what's next. What's next? What's next. Right? You know, when I first met Larry, I was just our careers are so similar. As far as years, we taught the type of districts we worked in the type of administrative jobs we had, from the building level to the central office. But it really is becoming a thing where you're seeing more men set their ego aside, because I think we're learning and we're kind of understanding that, at the end of the day, nobody, man or woman on their deathbed ever said, I wish I worked more, right. It's I wish I was had more time with my family. I wish I had more time to go on vacation, I wish I would have taken the time to be where I needed to be, which is with your family.

And I think the ego part of us is, we talk a big game sometimes like you need to be with your family- put family first. And we're the last to do it. That's kind of administrators that I looked up to had that mindset, but you're starting to see a shift. I'm starting to see a shift in that that work. We say, put your family first, we mean it. And we're going to support that whatever it means, even if that means going outside to contract if we have to. So you as an educator, can be your best self every day. That's what we have to do.

So it's setting that ego aside that it's okay, Larry's I think four years younger than I am or two years younger than I am. He's a Superintendent, I'm not. Prior to the last three or four years, I'd have been like, hey, I gotta get there. I got people beat me. I got people beating me, my colleagues, people my age already becoming superintendent. I'm not a superintendent, yet. That ship sailed a long time ago. Just I've started to surround myself with the right people. I've started to focus more on what's most important, and it's my three children and my wife, the job is the job. And yes, I love my job. I love the district, my kids go to this district, but I need to pour into them more than I ever did before.

I've been an administrator now for 17 years. So for the first 10 years, as an administrator, I didn't have kids. So I got accustomed to a lifestyle, to a scatter. I'm going to be at everything because I can be. I have responsibilities, myself, and my wife. And we used to put everything together. Basketball games, football games, concerts, you name it. But really, I'm seeing a shift and setting the ego aside. And I think it's because we know more, right? Do better because we know better. And I think we're getting to know better that we go and take in so much stress, so much pressure, and carry it all before we crumble. I think that's where you provide such a great resource for people as in, they're coming to an understanding that if you're not pouring into yourself, you can't pour in anybody else.

That's it. I couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly the things that you're saying here setting the example being the example is essential, right? Because as you were growing up, the models, the men who are models for you, did things a certain way . Which perpetuated these things that you're saying here like this pressure, this race to the top, the climbing the ladder, getting to the next place, and all of that story of what quote unquote, needs to happen for you as a career man is simply a story. And the only person who gets to change that story is you for yourself.

But the power that lies in when you get to be that change, because you embody that change, you set a different example for everyone else around you, which is that generational transformation piece that we're all, that's our business, right? We're in transformational generational change for our kids. And the only way that happens is if you change yourself. And to your point, Jeff, that you just mentioned, you were married without kids for the first part of your career, going back to the beginning of our conversation, talking about seasons, that reflection in that is so important. And I would love to ask, and I'm sure, Larry, you've experienced seasons in some of these ways, too. We all have. How have you been able to give yourself permission? To give yourself grace during those transitions? I'm presuming a lot here perhaps you haven't.

I think it's a journey. I mean, I think it goes back to sort of understanding what your own core mission is as a person. So I'm comfortable at this point. Even though I'm brand new to my district here. I'm comfortable enough at this point in 14 years into being an administrator of knowing who I am and how I can operate in and what I'm comfortable doing and not doing. For example, tonight we have an open house here at our middle school. There's also three or four homes, sporting events, right, that are all taking place here on our campus. So I could hit four or five things in one night. And I'm not going to say, for the entire thing and every one, but we're gonna be out there visible and being supportive. I think it also comes back to fit.

One reason I was so attracted to Shenango Valley as a school district was that my office, the reason I keep looking out here is this is the main student entrance of the school. It's right outside my office, it's the middle school high school on one campus. The bus garage is right down a hill, all of our athletic fields are here. And we have two elementary schools that are within two miles of each other. So I can really be everywhere. The district I was in with 10 buildings spread across the small city, it was hard, it was really hard to feel connected. In my leadership style is one where I need to, it's more personal, I want to feel connected to what we're doing.

So I think, again, when you're in the right fit, and you're energized, and although it's not perfect, you feel like it's doable. I think that feeds at least my physical and mental health, more than anything else, I've coming off of a fit where I really liked the people that I worked for and with, it got to a point where I wasn't really sure it mattered how I showed up every day. I just had this over three years, if I came in and knocked out of the park, or if I came in and didn't, I wasn't really sure if I was making any kind of difference. And so I feel like that fit and being energized, helps you make better decisions about some of those transitions.

I fully understand that. And that is so important. This idea of best fit versus climbing the ladder to the next thing is essential for the longevity of your career. I mean, what does it matter if you retire after 35 years if you're unhealthy?

And there's things that happen in your life where the light bulb goes off, and you finally realize, Hey, am I doing this for the right reasons. And Larry says it's a personal mission, right? So as a leader, you have to understand why you do what you do. What is my why. I'm as hard headed as anybody, anybody that's close to me will know that I'm hard headed. We talked about our health, right? And I can talk about this, I had a stroke at work on July 26 of this year. Right? Coming to find out I have a thing in my heart that 30% of the world's population has. Its a little hole in the upper septum, the wall between your upper chambers, it's fixable, but I wasn't. I was at work, my arm was immobile. I couldn't do anything with it.

I was sitting in the meeting and I'm like, just gonna stay here and maybe my feeling will come back here momentarily. But I worked for a wonderful superintendent that said, What is going on? So why can't I feel my arm? That doesn't move right now? He goes, you need to go to the hospital. So I went and it took my boss to say, Jeff, we're here tomorrow, it'll be here the next day, it'll be here the next day. I'm under good leadership myself as a district leader. And having someone model that to take care of yourself. I'm not an unhealthy person, I exercise, I do everything I'm supposed to do as a 46 year old man to take care of my body. But those things happen, right? You have to take care of yourself.

When Larry says that he said it very well, better than I can is, what is my why? Right? If I'm here to be unhealthy and die on the job, then shame on me. My kids need their dad around, you got to carry for yourself. And that's the most important thing you come before anything else. I can't be good for my wife, I can't be good for my children, I can't be good for the people that I'm at, I serve and homer without my health being a priority.

And I think a measure of our leadership really comes down to are we helping to create and sustain environments where people can Iive here at the end of the day, the end of the week? And function well those other portions of their lives or are they so stressed out. Is the environment so toxic, that they've got nothing left and that example Jeff was really powerful. And even simple things like I don't email staff on weekends, I don't email my team on weekends on Fridays, I know it's asynchronous, it's an email, you can read it. But there's something about getting email from your superintendent on a weekend that diverts your attention from where you should be. I'll write and draft a lot of emails and save them. And they'll go out on Monday morning but unless it's an emergency, I'm contacting our assistant supervisor or director of facilities for something that's just a little piece that I've come to appreciate, early in my career, I would have sent an email. And I did at 5:30 in the morning to show how hard I was working. Which was about my ego, and not about the recipient, right. So again, it's taken some time to get there. But I feel more comfortable in that space now.

I tell younger administrators, I have an email notifications on my phone as administrator and almost a decade. Emergencies don't come via email. Everyone knows my number. If it's an emergency, they'll call me. Otherwise, it's going to wait till the next day because it's an email.

Yep, absolutely. It tried to take that approach with email in general because it's one of those things that people say, my principal says they spend 75% of your time on email. Well, there's reasons for that. And there's reasons that you don't have to do that. And so, you know, that's a whole another topic. But I know that email has definitely become one of those things that we can't really envision the workplace existing without that that unless it's approached the right way can take over someone's life in a very bad way.

Sir, I think to your point, Larry, you know, you had said, your own self reflection, really made a change for you, which then affected your school culture and the way that you interact with your staff. And I think that's a really important point that I want to highlight here. Because your personal growth, I mean, you everybody, right? Everyone, you your personal growth is completely reflective of the growth and expansion of the organizations that you serve. Your organization's can't grow and expand beyond your capacity to grow and expand personally. And that example that you just gave is a beautiful example of that.

So I want to just shift for a second because we keep circling around this idea of success. And I really want to hit it straight on. It sounds like throughout this journey for both of you, you've really had to redefine success. And so my question is, what did that process look like for you? If was there a moment, you know, I know Jeff, thank you for sharing that moment with us that is, I know, will resonate with so many listeners who are tuning in right now. Was there a moment in your journey that you realize this definition needs to change? And what is your definition of success now?

My definition of success changed. I would say, January 21, 2016, when my first son was born and realized that this world is more than just Jeff Evener. Now I'm responsible for not only my wife, but also on child. That on February 8, 2018, my second son was born. And then on April 14th, of last year, my daughter was born. So my definition of success is no longer to be a superintendent of schools just for the sake of being a superintendent of schools. I still remember my first class at SUNY Cortland to take my CAS course. And what do you want to do when you get your degree? And I was the only one who said I want to be a superintendent. So I remember that moment vividly.

And yeah, do I want to be a superintendent? Yes, I do. But it's not going to be the be all end all anymore for Jeff Evener. Might be all end all is my wife Beth, my son, my other son Carter, and my daughter Emma. Those are might be all to end all. That's when my definition of success changed. I'm not chasing what I thought was the most important thing in the world, which was to be a school superintendent at 30 years old. When now, I have a great job as an assistant superintendent in a great district where my kids attend. And I have a wonderful superintendent who supports me, guides me, gives me grace when I need it, pushes me when I need it, and just as continues to be a good role model for me. I think it's an ever evolving definition of success. But early on in my career, it was how can I be a young superintendent. And I had enough superintendents to tell me, don't do it. I was born at night, but not last night. So you know, life has a way of ebbing and flowing. And again, my definition of success definitely changed once I had kids.

What about you, Larry?

Yeah, mine was sort of right around when the pandemic started that week before I think we all knew that was all gonna fall apart. I had been a principal, and then finishing my fourth year as an assistant super, not my most previous district, but in the district prior to that, I have worked for a superintendent who brought me over throughout the district promoted me to Assistant Superintendent very quickly at age 36, did not want to pursue the superintendency at that time, when she left so someone else came in. And that was the day it was March 11. Our throwing dates out March 11 of 2020. That just on a casual pop into my new superintendent's office, she pretty much told me that my services weren't needed if I didn't want to be there anymore. And I think to myself, like wow, I neglected my family for seven years to get to this moment. And listen, it all worked out. I ended up in a different district, a bigger district. And it was a great move for me anyway.

I'm thankful that happened in some ways, because I don't know if I would have been nudged to pursue this bigger position. Had I just been comfortable. I was comfortable there. And it at that point, I realized that I'm never just going to work blindly for an organization again, and had this not worked out here in Shenango Valley, I would have been back in Binghamton. My previous district as an assistant super I didn't apply anywhere else. But it's just as I researched this district of felt like the kind of place where I could lead in a way that's true to me. In a very manageable size district. More 1600 students, 3 buildings, to be the superintendent of Binghamton. And 10 buildings and 5000 students, I would never aspire to that. So they lead me to find out my bit by also, at this point, never will blindly work for that organization again, just knowing that it can all be taken from you like that.

And in my case, it worked out well. But in the first couple of days after that happened, I wasn't sure it was going to. I thought my career was going to be over, who's going to want to hire me, this is a small area, kind of everyone knows each other. It was a shock. It was a shock. And I think at that moment, I wouldn't say it changed overnight. But over time, I realized that always being the one to go and do it and forge ahead, unless it's for the right reasons, isn't really the right paradigm?

Yeah, well, you know, sometimes it does take those very low moments in our life, to turn on a switch or to allow a new perspective to appear that we were not able to see before. And looking back, of course, we always get to say, I'm so glad that horrible thing happened. Look where we are, yeah, look where we are now. But you know, I think boiling down both of what your answers were to this question, and correct me if I'm wrong, it this idea of success, it sounds like for both of you is being able to act in alignment with your values.

Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it.

Yeah, and that's being able to articulate your values is important. And I honestly think, not just on education, I think in general, in any type of organization, people appreciate people who are true to themselves, leaders who are themselves, and are really truly in it for others, right. The best leaders are others centric, but they do take care of themselves, too, right. And I think we're going back to the word vulnerable, people appreciate that. I think I was just meeting with a teacher before this podcast over at our junior high school. And we had such a great authentic conversation where the teacher is able to vent a little bit, I was able to vent a little bit. We picked each other up, dusted each other off. And now her class came in, and I came back over my office to do this podcast, and she's teaching, right as we speak. But it's those moments, those conversations that realize that you're true to yourself. I think your audience appreciates that.

And ultimately, your students see that where we're in a place where our kids are watching us to learn how to be an adults.

I think that's just an underappreciated thing you just talked about was, whenever I interview, they asked me about leadership. And I see it's highly visual. Talk about a John Maxwell as and that's one of them. Leadership is highly visual. But being an adult, is highly visual for students to see myself a guy in the suit, talking to a teacher, and having light hearted moments and laughing and conversing in a very respectful manner. We're role modeling for kids, even when we don't know we're role modeling for kids. They're watching us all the time. So I'm glad you brought that up, Jen. Because it's near and dear to me. And I'm not honestly you talked about seasons. I'm not in a good season right now modeling for my children. I'm a little stressed and taken out on them at work schedules get a little amped up, you know, as schools come back into session. But that's something I got I'm cognizant.

Empowered Educator Programming is great for that.

It is. It's a wonderful program.

Yeah, it's true. They're watching our every move all the time. And so you know, to your point, Jeff, when you were saying, I'm talking to this teacher and the guy in the suit, and we're having this conversation, if you're not pouring into yourself, you're not able to have that light hearted moment with that teacher for them to see, and bringing it back home to where we even first started. It's that you need to be in alignment with you and your values and your mission and your why. And take care of yourself so you can show up for others. Yeah, amazing. So if someone was listening right now, or Okay, Jeff, Larry, I got you, I hear you. What can I do today to make some change?

I can just speak for something that I've come to appreciate more, maybe it's getting a little older. Or maybe it's just the more experienced, but the things that I'm doing today will impact how I show up tomorrow, right? And so, everything from the food on eating, whether I'm active or not, you know, do I have one glass of wine or two glasses of wine, all of those things impact my ability to make good decisions and lead tomorrow in alignment with my values. So I've just tried to really become cognizant of how interdependent each day is among each other.

In fact, I yesterday was really tired. And I could tie it back to the fact that I think on Friday, I ate food that I'm not used to eating. There was my sister turned 40. She had a little get together. And that just stayed with me for a couple of days. And it impacted sleep and it impacted routines. And obviously, there's going to be celebrations you're not going to be in bed at nine and up if I block out every day. But what I'm trying to appreciate is when there are opportunities, we're out of routine, or you're at some kind of function. Speaking of going to the superintendents conference, Jeff, I've been thinking about this a ton. All what I'm learning is all these vendors want to take you to dinner. And buy you drinks at these conferences. And I can see how in the day to day stress of the job, you're like, fantastic. I'm trying to figure out how do I participate in that from a networking perspective, but still be ready to roll the next day. I think just that interdependence of the days and paying attention to how what you do today, impacts tomorrow is a step we can all take every day.

To kind of build off what Larry said, it's knowing what your limits are. Right? You have to know what your limits are. And everyone has different limits, right? Some people can eat terribly and be fully functional and full of energy and where food like that bog, Larry down for a couple of days, people can go on.

Cross pizza in this town and never eat it. But they got it and it is so good. And boy, two or three slices, too many. And honestly, like, by Sunday, I'm still like, Oh, what did I do?

So it's really knowing your limits. And really, from my perspective, having gone through different seasons in my life and not having been being extra healthy as a young guy to not being healthy to not focusing on exercising and working out and maybe imbibing a little too much from time to time trying to relive my college glory days from on a Friday night. But so it's really knowing what your limits are. For example, I know that if I don't get at least seven hours of sleep in my bed, I'm going to struggle to be able to pour into others when I come to work. Right? I need that seven hours sleep others I've read stories about the former coach Jon Gruden, it sleeps two, three hours a night, they never figured out why. And his doctor told his parents make it his strength, he became a football wizard, because he would take that time in the early morning hours to watch football film. That's all he did. Right? Those are his limits. He could survive on two, three hours of sleep, and be a fully functional adult where I can't. So really knowing your limits, who you are what makes you tick, being in tune with yourself. That's not selfish, that's pouring into yourself is what it is. It's okay to be selfish when it comes to yourself and learning yourself and what makes you tick and what makes you feel good and what you need for sleep and what you need for diet. Those things are essential.

Yeah, and we know more than we think we know, too. And that's important. Because when we really slow down and quiet down, we can listen to what our body actually is telling us that we need. We just don't often take the time because rather be doing other things sometimes.

Exactly, like when you kind of lose your temper with your kids, right? I always. One hundred percent of the time, feel extremely guilty. Seconds later, minutes later, like don't talk to your kids that way. They're seven, they're five, they're one, they're learning, they're a modeling, right? A temper, I don't want them to have a temper. But yeah, here I am. And I write about that in the book a little bit. One of my chapters I write about that is, do my words, and my actions match. To me, that's the definition of integrity. Right? So I gotta try to be integris with everything I do.

Yeah, that alignment is essential. Well, that has been extremely helpful. And I have one last question for both of you, which is something I asked all of my guests on, Take Notes. What is your dream for the future of education? I asked this question as I'll give you a moment to think about, but I asked this question, because I really believe that the more we're able to speak up about our dreams, the closer we are to actually achieving them. So I would love to hear your thoughts about that.

My dream for public education is that every child in whatever district they're in, can pursue their life passion. Right? It's creating multiple pathways for students to be successful. And moving away from this idea that every kid has to go to college. That's my dream. It's great if you go to college. I'm a product of the college system, right? But not every kid is cut out. That's just one pathway for kids. What other pathways can we put in place for kids to be successful, to pursue their dreams, to pursue their passions, and to be employable when they get that diploma? So having a meaning behind our diploma. What does this diploma represent? That's my dream for public education.

I don't build off that, I think for me, and again, coming from some bigger districts, more complex district now being in a smaller district, I still see on a smaller scale some of the same challenges of trying to put students in a position to be successful. They don't fit the mold. When I fit the mold, my dad is a teacher I bought into that smile and raise your hand and get a good grade philosophy. And I know there's kids walking around this building right now that don't fit into that. And it's a little bit like a square peg in a round hole. To make the hole a little bit more squarish, right, it can't be perfect, right? There are 1600 kids in this district, but we're not going to personalize every aspect of the day for them. But some good things happening with graduation requirements. I'm excited to see what that navy rings, and then be able to put some of those actions in place. I think that would probably be my dream but an extension of I think what Jeff said very well.

I love that too. So yes, more of that, please, for everyone. And that's really, you know, we're in the business of changing the world. And it's really exciting. So thank you so much, both of you for sharing your time and your expertise. The link to your book, Dads, Leaders, and Father Figures is going to be right at the bottom of the show notes. So for those of you listening, go ahead and grab that on Amazon. Thank you again, for everything. I really appreciate it. And for those of you listening, make sure you subscribe. And if you liked this episode, please write a great review. And we'll see you next time on Take Notes. Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

Overcoming health challenges: Discover how to listen and respond to your body with Crissy Florio

Do you ever feel like life's challenges are too much to handle?

Whether it's the stress of daily responsibilities or something as life-altering as health crises, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and disconnected from ourselves.

In today’s episode, I sit down with the inspiring Crissy Florio, a yogi and breast cancer thriver. We delve into her story, showcasing her emotional resilience in overcoming cancer and the power of holistic healing.

Discover why it’s important to listen to your body and intuition during health challenges, Crissy's effective self-care strategies such as journaling, meditation, and nature walks, and how yoga can support the lymphatic system and overall health.

We also delve into ways to connect deeply with yourself and the importance of prioritizing well-being, not just for personal health but also for the ability to support and inspire others.

Join us and find out how to harness the strength you never knew you had and how you can bring more balance into your life.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Crissy:
Crissy is a lover of all things Mind, Body, and Soul. She is a Wife, Mom, Sister, Yogi, and a 3 year Breast Cancer Thriver. For over a decade, she has been teaching Vinyasa and Therapeutic Yoga- but recently has extended her knowledge to include Yoga for Cancer recovery, Yoga for the Lymphatic System and Yoga and TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine). She is an advocate for helping her students step into their power and connect to their bodies on a deeper level. Her classes are a well-balanced practice experience, full of healing the body physically, energetically, emotionally, and spiritually. Crissy has always believed in a healthy lifestyle and throughout the years has helped more and more beautiful humans live a more mindful, harmonious, connected life.

Connect with Crissy:
Website: healinginharmony.net
IG: @flo_withcrissyflorio
FB: FLO with Crissy Florio

TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, and welcome back to another fantastic episode of Take Notes. Today, I have an incredible guest. With me is Crissy Florio who is a lover of all things mind, body and soul, and she is a three year breast cancer thriver and for over a decade, she has been teaching vinyasa and therapeutic yoga, including yoga for cancer recovery, yoga for the lymphatic system and yoga and traditional Chinese medicine. She is an advocate for helping her students step into their power and connect to their bodies on a deeper level. And Crissy has always believed in a healthy lifestyle, and throughout the years has helped more and more beautiful humans live a more mindful, harmonious, and connected life. Thank you so much, Crissy for being here on the show today.

Crissy Florio
Yay. Thank you, I got a little teary eyed as you're saying all of that. Definitely jumping, I'd get emotional right off the bat. But there you are.

Jen Rafferty
Here we are. It's you. And it's beautiful. And you are here to share your story of thriving with our audience today. So let's start with that story.

Crissy Florio
Let's do it, sister.

Jen Rafferty
Give us all of the things, what happened in your life when you found out and kind of give us a sneak peek into what that journey was like, especially at the beginning with that initial diagnosis.

Crissy Florio
Sure, sure. You know, well, breast cancer never really ran in my family. And I can honestly say I never had a thought in my mind that I could potentially even get breast cancer, and I would go for my mammograms. I would go yearly to get my checkups, my woman checkups. And it just never really dawned on me. And it was 2020. And it was actually the end of August, that I was just going from a yearly checkup. And my gynecologist just kind of was feeling around and she was like, Oh, I don't really love the way that feels. And I was supposed to just walk down the hall to get my mammogram. I was, what, 42 at the time. And so she said, let's skip the mammogram today, let's do a diagnostic and an ultrasound. So I had that scheduled and still on fairly a positive mindset person or have that mindset. And I was just like, Okay, this was just routine, we'll just keep on going. And then one thing led to another and then a few weeks later, unfortunately, I heard the words you have breast cancer. And as you can imagine, life just stops in that moment. Everything is just like up in the air like is this really my life? Am I going to get through this, how and why and all the things. And I found out on September 23, with my husband in the room. And at that instant, I really can honestly say that I felt like I was just in a tunnel that the whirlwind was going around me and I was just sitting here watching everything spinning and spinning. And then you know days go by, you get a grasp of okay, you have all these new lingo that you're trying to learn about what type of cancer you have, new doctors you're going to need to meet with, what is your protocol going to look like. And so days and weeks go by and you slowly come out of that fog. And there's no time set for everybody's a little bit different. But I slowly came out of the fog and accepted my reality and accepted my journey of doing six rounds of chemo, double mastectomy, opted out of doing a few other things that my doctors had encouraged. But also at that moment, after doing all of that and technically being cancer-free within four months of finishing chemo and my mastectomy at that moment, I started to really hone in on my own intuition and my own gut feeling of being strong enough to say no to my doctors, and I don't encourage people to just be like, Hey, don't do this, because you're gonna have all of these side effects. I definitely don't agree with that. But I do agree with honing into your gut intuition into what feels right to you to make the decision that is right for you. And my decision was to then start to really marry in the eastern modalities to holistic healing and energy healing and nutrition and naturopathic healing as well as okay did everything Western in the beginning. And now I'm going to kind of really bring in some of my holistic healings to marry that into my own healing. So now fast forward, three and a half years later now, actually, February 23, will technically be four years of being cancer-free, that will be the day of my mastectomy four years ago, and that the day that I technically consider myself in remission and cancer-free, so it's been a whirlwind. It's been lots of ups and downs, but a beautiful journey, a real beautiful journey.

Crissy Florio
For me, when I feel any sort of illness up until recently, I kind of had to read or have a reconnection with my body in the way that I wanted to talk with it and have a relationship with it. Because there would be this anger and resentment, when my body was not doing the things that I wanted or needed it to in those moments, which then of course, continued this negative feedback loop. And you know how that story ends.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. So thank you so much for sharing all of that. And I know so much of what we're going to talk about, it's going to continue to resonate with our listeners. I want to take it in a few different directions. But before I do, there's something that you said came out of this, which was wanting to connect with your intuition and trusting your gut. So I'm wondering when there's illness or disease in the body, how then were you able to connect to your body again, where you could trust it?

Jen Rafferty
So, how were you able to reestablish that connection to your body so you could trust it? Or maybe that never went away for you?

Crissy Florio
No, it definitely did. It definitely did. In the beginning, it's like, wait a minute, I'm a healthy person. I have my hands on my hips right now. I teach yoga for God's sakes, like, how could this happen to me? And it can happen to anybody. And I think that's important to understand is that your body didn't let you down. I think that yeah, in the beginning, I did lose trust of like, wow, how did I let this happen? How did I have this huge tumor growing in my breasts, and I didn't even know, I think that, for me going through it during COVID actually was a blessing in disguise, because it was the end of COVID and because the vaccines weren't really a thing just yet. And the uncertainty of the world was really kicking in, I completely stopped working. My job was to kill myself.

Crissy Florio
So I quarantined again, I really didn't get to see any of my friends, except for some people who would take a COVID test and come and stay with me. So my job was to go inward. My job was really connecting back to myself, my job was to forgive my body. And I would ebb and flow with that, I would have days where I just wanted to scream and cry, and just lay in a ball. And I would have days where I was like, okay, you know what, I'm feeling okay. And I would get out and I would do things. So I think it's really important for everyone to understand whether it's a cancer diagnosis, or it's even just a sickness or an injury.

Crissy Florio
I think it's really important to give yourself the time to be able to pause and be one with yourself, not just your physical body, but your energy, your emotions, your thoughts, your feelings, your mind, and be able to feel all of the fields. And, again, kind of what I said before, there's no timeframe where you're like, Okay, time's up, I'm now I'm back to my normal self. No, it is going to come and go, you know, you're going to have that kind of push and pull type of feel, not only in your body, but in your emotions as well.

Crissy Florio
It's just a really important to be able to feel the feels. And it's quite interesting that a few months after, when I was technically cancer-free, the doctors just say, Okay, bye, go about and live your life now. Now, you only have to go to the doctors every three or six months. And you kind of get into this feeling of Wait a minute, I'm like, Wait, I gotta go back into life now? How do I do that? How do I do that and not live in fear?

Crissy Florio
And I really did this beautiful coaching program that I wasn't actually the coach, but I sat in on one and it was all about how to thrive after cancer, how to kind of learn to trust again, and not live in that fear-based world where you feel like it's just going to come back any moment. And really taking your power back in the form of what you eat, what thoughts are you thinking, what are you doing physically to continue to build that, strengthen that trust to your body again, and one of the most beautiful things that we did and it was so, I have the chills right now thinking about it, it was we wrote a letter to our body. And we wrote a letter from our body back to us, reconnecting and reestablishing that beautiful bond and recognizing that my body is not separate from me. My mind is not separate from me. My emotions are not separate from me, my energy is where one and just re establishing that connection of unity and oneness.

Crissy Florio
And what was beautiful about it is learning yoga. And being a teacher and being a body who lives her yoga. That's what you'll get is unity is to yoga is to unite is to be one. And it starts with yourself first. And then it continues out to others. So it was just coming also back like full circle to my yoga-ness, my yogi-ness, whatever, just being one with myself and loving myself as a whole once again.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it's so beautiful. And I guess my question to you is, we both know that being in unity with yourself, sounds lovely. And it doesn't always feel good. As we're going through this process, because you need to look in the mirror you need to go within you need to reconnect with some of the shadows and the wounds that you've experienced in your life. What kinds of things did you do to help you through all of that, when it might have felt really uncomfortable?

Crissy Florio
Some of the things that I did back then, and I continue to today, because as we know, life is constantly happening, distractions are always going to occur, pain, discomfort. We're always going to have discomfort around coming and going in our lives. So back then, for me, it was cancer. For now, right now, I've been going through some back discomfort and some back things for the last two and a half months, which very much is bringing me back to that same kind of vibe and feels of when I was going through my cancer diagnosis, which is really quite interesting.

Crissy Florio
So it made me realize that there are still some wounds there that need to be healed. But some of the things that I did back then and still continuing today, number one, journaling, for me, is one of my favorite ways to acknowledge, accept, and to visualize or ask for what I want coming up in the day to day ahead or coming ahead. So journaling huge, huge, huge for me, meditation, very huge, you would think, Oh, yogis, they meditate all the time. I didn't have a huge meditation practice but going through quarantine life and COVID life, I started to connect to one. And then obviously going through chemo, I really did. I loved guided meditations.

Crissy Florio
And you don't have to do it on your own. You can do some of the guided meditations, there's a ton on YouTube that are beautiful. And you find people that connect to you and the topic and the purpose behind the meditation, you can find ones that really call to you on those days. So that really helps me EFT tapping, I loved to do tapping. And while I didn't do it so much when I was going through chemo, because I was afraid to actually tap my head because during chemo, I did cold capping to save my hair. So I didn't want to tap on my head. So I kind of didn't do it then but I did it just shortly after like my surgery and that healing, and I do it a lot now.

Crissy Florio
Being outside being in nature, going for walks. Definitely. I live in Florida. So for me being able to go to the ocean is very accessible. But any, I've learned this from our energy healer Farrell, the in salt water of some sort, whether it is the ocean, or taking a bath and putting just standard table salt in your bath is really, really good to release as well. And those are definitely ways that I personally love it. And also reading. I think reading some self healing books and learning other different views on things that helped to ignite other ways of healing as well and just see some other things to bring me back into the present moment. Rather than letting my mind go so far forward, bring it back home, right here.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, and being in the present moment is something that I think everybody wants to know how to do more, you know how to do it, you know, we want to be able to reconnect to it more and more. But the priorities that we have found ourselves in are very different from the priorities that you're describing right now. And so I know your circumstances were different because it was during COVID. So everyone's priorities shifted during then but now you know life is kind of back to at least a pace, a similar pace. How do you continue to prioritize your healing in a world that often tells us that becomes secondary or even tertiary kind of way to some of these other things that seem more important?

Crissy Florio
I think that for someone like myself who has gone through something so traumatic as cancer and it doesn't have to just be cancer, it could be something, a situation that happens in your life. For somebody else, it could be any other type of disease in the body or even an injury. I think that when you go through a traumatic situation, you are gifted the opportunity to go inward and to recognize how important life is and how important your health is. And for me, I think that I took that and I ran with it. I took that as being it is such a gift to be healthy. And I don't want anything to disrupt that.

Crissy Florio
So fast forward to life happening and thriving now and everything happening. I still, daily, listen, what do I need today, what feels good in Sundays. It could just be hands on my heart, taking a few deep breaths, feet in the ground. Some days, it could be like a really great vigorous workout. Some days, it could just be walking with a friend and conversating because I haven't met up with them in a while. And I think that losing the overall societal standards of No, you should just do, do, do be everything for everybody else. And then if you have a little leftover energy, then you might want to work out.

Crissy Florio
I think flipping the script on that. And filling yourself up first. And being with yourself first and then doing for yourself first, will then be able to give so much to other people as well. And it's interesting, because I had a conversation with my best friend who you know, right around the holidays, I was going through all my back stuff, I was crying in pain, because I'm in just in so much discomfort. And I was hosting something and she's just like, you just need to let people help you. Let your daughter see that you need help. Let her help you because she wants to. And let her see what receivership looks like. I was like, Oh, wow, you are so right in this.

Crissy Florio
I was looking at it like oh, I don't want to put this on her because this isn't her situation. This is mine. But really allowing our youth and our loved ones to see what receivership looks like, and not thinking, Oh, I'm just putting all of this on them was really like a Whoa, point for me. So I think that especially in your world, and with all of your beautiful listeners and members in your community, especially in the education world, teachers need to understand that like they need to fill themselves up first. They need to understand their worth and their health and build this compassion for themselves and their bodies first, because if they do that they will only be there for their students and their parents and everybody in their community even that much more is so important.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. And that truly is the message that is the underpinning of everything we do in Empowered Educators. The most generous thing you can do for other people is take care of yourself, which really does fly in the face of some of these traditional societal standards. But it's not working. The way that it's going isn't working, we're not getting the results that we really want. We're not living our best lives. And when we do fall with some sort of illness or trauma or a family situation, it's this internal struggle of where are my priorities.

Jen Rafferty
And I think one of the most important pieces of all of this is that you don't have to wait for the diagnosis or the trump to happen to wake up and say, I need to prioritize me I need to make my health a priority because like you said, your health is a gift. That's all we've got in this lifetime. And if that's not a priority, then really what are we doing and what are we teaching our kids?

Crissy Florio
And unfortunately, our medical world, especially in America, is very much a reactive world, right, they react, they want to treat the one component that the disease is lying in. Whereas with the Eastern mentality, it is a proactive approach, and treat the body as a whole. And while I'm in the world where I really want to help a lot of beautiful breast cancer survivors and thrivers, learn how to reentry their way back into their New World and new reality, I'm also very much connected to helping beautiful women be more proactive in their world before it happens, right?

Crissy Florio
Learn how to create daily routines, to center yourself before going into the chaos of your world. Learn how to not let external distractions enter in into your internal peace. And it doesn't have to be, Oh, I gotta go to a 75 minute hot yoga class every single day or get a massage every single day. In order to find that no, it could just be sitting down and being with your thoughts for five minutes. It can be like I said, just getting out and breathing in fresh air for five minutes, feel the sunshine, have a great conversation, a positive conversation with a friend. Not going to your negative friend and hearing them just complain all the time, surrounding yourself with people who have like minded mentalities of wanting more for themselves. Eating just healthier foods, whether it be cleaner foods, or maybe less alcohol, less caffeine, which Listen, I love my wine, and I love my coffee, two things I probably will never give up but lessening it, or finding cleaner options for it. Or maybe you do meatless Mondays, and you try to eliminate toxic meat products coming into your body. Not to say there's anything wrong with eating meat, but maybe cleaner, grass fed kinder type of meats entering into your body.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it's basic human health. And that is something that we all need. So let's stay there for a little bit. Because this is also part of your specialty yoga for the lymphatic system, yoga and the connection to traditional Chinese medicine, so what kinds of things do you now incorporate into your practice and share with your students that might be different than the typical yoga class or what we might think of as a traditional yoga class?

Crissy Florio
There are so many things that you could do maybe before bed, instead of just being on your phone for 1015 minutes beforehand, you turn off the you dim the lights, you maybe read a good positive book or do a great meditation before you go to bed. There's really so many things that people can do that they can take little steps each day than before, you know, you are creating this beautiful routine of mindfulness and presence and building that internal love and peace and connection that everybody deserves and needs. I don't like to say need. We know the importance of using the word should and need but everybody needs this. They need this.

Crissy Florio
You know, I feel like with yoga, there are so many different styles of yoga, there are so many different formats, and it's evolving, right? The yoga that was practiced thousands of years ago, and the yoga that's practiced today, it can be very different. And I feel like my approach to my teachings now my approach has always been, I want people to feel empowered when they leave my class. Now, even more so, I want people to feel a deeper sense to that intuitive movement. Right?

Crissy Florio
When as I teach me the different levels and different postures, I want people to feel intuitively what feels right for them not always doing the most advanced move. But now even more so I feel like there's so much knowledge and education now about how strong our bodies really are. The body is such a beautiful thing. And I get so excited about how strong our bodies are, if we're really treating them right. So from a physical standpoint, learning about the lymphatic system, for instance, the lymphatic system is basically in a nutshell there I don't have to spend too much time on it but I do get very nerdy, I know, I nerd out on it big time.

Jen Rafferty
Let's do it! I love nerding out.

Crissy Florio
So the lymphatic system is very much our trash removal system, right? Our waste removal system. And unlike the heart where the heart can pumps the blood and get things going in the body our lymphatic system actually doesn't have a pump in it. Our pump would either be us physically moving our bodies or lymphatic massage or dry brushing or exercise, rebounding, there's many ways that you can encourage the flow of the fluid in the body.

Crissy Florio
And so now, I love to incorporate lymphatic drainage. And the encouragement of that lymphatic drainage in our yoga practices with breath work, with moving our bodies, with those specially around the joints, 'm actually doing a lot of lymphatic and yoga one on one workshops. So kind of a high level, an introduction into how we can ignite our lymphatic system and giving my clients high level knowledge of how it works and what they can do on their own.

Crissy Florio
So learning or teaching them about that a little bit, doing a yoga flow, where we incorporate some different movements that they're like, oh, okay, I can do this on my own. And then giving them some practical tools that they can start to incorporate into their daily routine, like a self lymphatic massage, like the dry brushing, like just moving your joints around and doing a quick massage to open up those areas to help the flow and encourage the flow. I do that. I really try to do that quite a few times a week, I'll do a lay, I have one of those Shakti mats now for acupressure, lying back in the back, I do those, there are some great acupressure points on the days that I'm feeling maybe low energy or back pain, or maybe my immune system is feeling a little sluggish, I'll start to do incorporate some acupressure points or go to acupuncture.

Crissy Florio
So I think it's ultimately it comes down to teaching people to be more connected to their body to listen to how the body is communicating to them. People don't really realize how good our bodies are designed to feel when you are stuck in very sluggish energy or constant headaches, constant cramps for women, like our bodies are really not meant to be in that chronic fatigue or chronic discomfort. And we all just get used to it. And I think that's important of recognizing where is this constant communication coming for us in these aches and pains and discomfort and all of that.

Crissy Florio
And so I think it's understanding that in your own body, because we are so different. And that is a different approach from Eastern to Western, medical systems too ,right? Eastern is very much of whoa, okay, how is your body communicating, we're all different, genetically, we're different. What our bodies need, from day to day is going to be different. What I need is going to be different from what you need. But in the western world is Oh, you have a headache, here's some medicine.

Crissy Florio
Because we did some findings and some research on a bunch of women, white women of a certain age that all need this. Again, we are all different, depending on our background, depending on our race, depending on how we were birthed into this world, when we were birthed into this world, what our genetic makeup is, it's all different. And so I think one of my main purposes in this world is to really help women and men understand to listen to their bodies to get more intuitive with their own body so they can really see what they need. They can prescribe to what they need to know themselves and not need so many external findings and people to help them find it.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, the communication to your body and the communication from your body is so essential. You know, our body talks to us all the time. And we do just need to be better listeners. I was talking with a woman the other day at a workshop I was doing and it was like, Hey, how was everyone? It was just the beginning and I'm great but I have this headache and I don't know why. It's for no reason. I think is what she said I was heading for no reason. And as it goes looks so interesting. We don't have headaches for no reason. What is this headache telling you right now? And even just asking that question is unusual from the way that we've all kind of been brought up, generally speaking.

Jen Rafferty
So this questioning process and this looking within is such an important theme for any sort of work that you're doing, but particularly when it comes to your health. I so appreciate that. And as a side, I love my Shakti mat. I did that this morning. I do it almost every morning. And the dry brushing thing was something that I remember first hearing about it and saying, no way, what is this stupid thing?

Jen Rafferty
And when I did it consistently and I've kind of you know, ebbs and flows with my consistency with it, but the inflammation goes away the ability to feel more agile even is something that I've noticed too with my body. So doing something other than popping a couple of Advil has been really helpful because it feels like I have some autonomy with my body. And that's really important.

Crissy Florio
And I think there's something to be said about the beautiful opportunity to become curious, right? So if you take the, all the questions out of it, and you kind of maybe revamp it to be like, I'm gonna be curious, I'm gonna be curious about what's going on in my body and explore. And I use those words a lot, actually, in my yoga classes now, instead of expectations and judgment. I'm just going to explore like, what's going on in my body today? What am I bringing onto the mat today?

Crissy Florio
And move into, it feels a little bit more light and fun to be curious as to what's going on. And then maybe the why comes behind it. But I think that we don't pause enough. We don't pause, and because it's just such a, like a reactive type of society that we live in, like, Oh, you gotta take care take those pills, rather than just taking a moment and just pausing and reflect and just being like, because when we close our eyes, and we take a few deep breaths, it's amazing. When we can go inward, the world that we start to see the world that we start to feel that is within us. And it is very much moving into that curious mentality. Rather than I'm just going to put the bandaid on, I'm just going to take the two ibuprofen or two Advil or whatever, and just really see what we eat or drink yesterday, or what didn't I eat or drink yesterday? Or, you know what I feel in my neck? Is it like stress? What were my stress levels yesterday? And I'm just getting curious, maybe with some of those questions, and just simply asking yourself, and again, not looking for others to ask you questions, but having that connection and the desire and the want to be able to ask the questions yourself, and figure out the questions for yourself.

Crissy Florio
What a gift to create, and continue to initiate that internal dialogue. That is something that I know continues to strengthen the relationship you get to have with yourself, which is the most important relationship you will ever have in this lifetime. So that's gorgeous, Chrissy. And so with that, in mind thinking about our audience, thinking about schools, what would your dream be for the future of education?

Crissy Florio
I have older kids now. My kids are now 21 and meat team, which is absolutely insane. I don't know how that happened. Because I feel like I'm 21 sometimes, myself. But I feel that back into, and I don't even know if it was ever really there. But bringing back the sense of just compassion and oneness. And seeing these children, as like little kids once again, and being present. That feeling so stressed, teachers and educators have so much weight on their shoulders. And unfortunately, you all have one of the most important jobs in our future.

Crissy Florio
And I feel that do you want to give to your students so much you want to be there for your teacher so much this is what's coming up now is going a different route but this is what goin up now. You can't give to your students unless you give to yourselves. And that is the best gift that you can give yourself. So if I could see educators, teachers of all levels, from preschool all the way to the college and even yoga world and any kind of teacher that you are, give yourself the opportunity to slow down to reconnect to yourself so that you can then show up for all of your beautiful students. And I promise you, you will not only have a better experience within you, but you are creating a really beautiful and calm environment that you will be able to teach with ease and with just yes, all of the beautiful things.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, and organizations don't change until people change. And this is something that you get to give yourself permission to do this for you. And that's really how the ripple effect starts and how we do make significant change. So that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

Crissy Florio
Thank you.

Jen Rafferty
I know, people listening are loving what you're saying and I want to give them the opportunity to easily get in touch with you. How can they do that?

Crissy Florio
So, I think the best way would be to go to my website it. So it's hearing in harmony and I'm sure you'll probably put the notes on, but it's healinginharmony.net. and you can hit contact me, reach out to me, my phone number and email are on there feel free, I would love that. And I also include a lot of events that I'm doing. Most of my events are local, but I'm looking to branch out and do more online events as well. And actually, in February, I think it's on February 21. I'm going to do my online yoga and lymphatics workshop, because I want to expand this knowledge and misinformation out to so many other amazing humans. So I hope you all can join me for that. I'll get the information on that probably coming in the next few weeks up on my website, but you can stay in touch with me also through social media Instagram, I think it's flo with crissy florio and it's @flo_withcrissyflorio. So yeah, stay in touch. I'd love to hear what you thought about this. And if there's any other ways that I can be of service, I would love to stay in your world to, Jen.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, I would love for you to say in my world and then personal experience. For those of you listening, Chrissy is a fabulous yoga instructor. I love being in your classes. And I am excited to continue to learn from you and excited to extend the invitation to everyone listening to learn from you, too.

Crissy Florio
I do actually online private sessions, group events, and corporate events, and weddings, and all that too. So if even if you're not close here in Florida, I definitely have a lot of private clients that work with me one on one, and we still feel the energy even through zoom even though I you and I are doing right now.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, a hundred percent, so thank you so much for being here sharing your story, sharing your wisdom and expertise. I really appreciate your time.

Crissy Florio
Thank you. It was my honor. Truly. I appreciate it. Thank you. And thank you to everyone listening.

Jen Rafferty
And if you love today's episode, which I know you did, make sure you write a five star review, subscribe and share with a friend and we'll see you next time on take notes.

Jen Rafferty
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

How to overcome teacher burnout? Tips for a sustainable teaching career with Lily Jones

Are you struggling with teacher burnout and longing to rediscover the joy and purpose in your teaching career?

You're not alone, and there's a path forward to help you find that fulfillment again.

Join us in today’s episode where I am joined by Lily Jones, the founder of Educator Forever.

Lily shares her journey and experiences, guiding us through the importance of reconnecting with our 'why' – the core reason that drew us to teaching and how this can transform stress into a source of strength and joy.

We explore essential strategies for teacher well-being, emphasizing the importance of self-care and professional development in creating a more sustainable and fulfilling teaching experience.

We also tackle the myth that hard work and joy can't coexist in the teaching profession and the needed change in the education system.

Tune in to learn simple ways to bring back your love for teaching and see your work in a happier, new way.
Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Lily:
Lily Jones is the founder of Educator Forever, where she empowers teachers to expand their impact beyond the classroom, and Educator Forever Agency, where she works with a team of educators to create inspiring curricula. Holding an MA in Education from UC Berkeley, Lily spent seven inspiring and exhausting years as a kindergarten and first-grade teacher, then left the classroom to work as a curriculum designer, instructional coach, and education consultant. In everything she does, Lily hopes to support kids to love learning and teachers to love teaching.

Connect with Lily:
Website: educatorforever.com
IG: @educatorforever
FB: Educator Forever

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and does the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the take notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of empowered educator, and I've been where you are, in this season. We're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Lily Jones
Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Take Notes. I am here with the wonderful Lily Jones, who is the founder of Educator Forever, where she empowers teachers to expand their impact beyond the classroom, and Educator Forever Agency where she works with a team of educators to create inspiring curricula. Thank you so much, Lily, for being here on the show today.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. So let's dive in. And one of the things we had talked about previously, before we started recording, because we've talked for a couple of times now. You have a really great way of continuing to connect to your bigger purpose of what it is that you're doing, and why you're doing that. And some of that message is obviously really important right now for teachers and educators to connect with. But it's been overdone in a way where a lot of people feel resentful about this idea. Like, you know, you're telling me to remember my why I'm so stressed out right now, how could this possibly be helpful for me? And I'd love for you to tell me a little bit how you walk through those feelings, which are completely valid with your clients and how you kind of navigate them yourself?

Lily Jones
Yes, absolutely. I think first acknowledging that like teachers are dealing with so much, and it's so easy to feel like, Oh, somebody's just like flippantly telling me to do something, you know, focus on my wife, or take time for me or practice self-care, like, all of these things often are said in a very, like Band-Aid kind of way. And so I think just acknowledging the place that it comes from those feelings of annoyance is valid, and like part of a toxic system for teachers. And so I think that just acknowledging that first all, and then I really do think that like your why is the only thing that matters in some ways. So it's like, I don't think that focus is in that same vein, if you really think about it, I think that thinking about the bigger why for everything in education and life, it is really grounding and important. And so I think, for teachers to really think about not only a "Why" in terms of their career, or like, why am I doing this? Or why am I in this situation? But like, why am I in education in the first place? What is my goal, or what drew me to this in the first place? Like, I remember being so excited, as a beginning teacher being like, oh, my gosh, I have my own classroom, this is amazing. Like, I can get kids really excited about learning. Like, that was my "Why" I want kids to feel excited to come to school. And then as the years went on, I got pretty disconnected from that "Why", because of all the day-to-day stuff. And so reconnecting to that allowed me to think about not only like while I was a classroom teacher making a bigger impact to having a more sustainable life for me that felt connected to what I wanted to do, but also really thinking about the why behind what I was teaching, and why it was important for kids and the bigger purpose of it all. So I think it's so important in all the things to think about a bigger picture. And I think some of what's so stressful about being a teacher is we don't have the mental space to do that. Well, you know, so many frenzied moments and managing all the things and it's like, how do I even create the time to think about this when I have tiny children asking me to do things and administrators telling me to do things and all the things.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I agree with you, validating those feelings has to come first. Because if we don't acknowledge them, we are making it worse actually and creating feelings of even more frustration and resentment, which doesn't end well. So once we can kind of acknowledge I'm having a hard time here. I know cognitively that I need to be giving myself more time paying attention to self-care, connecting to this bigger picture, I'm acknowledging that it doesn't feel good right now, process through those feelings so that then you can truly connect to that bigger picture. Because I totally agree with you. Understanding your reason for doing anything is going to give you the direction for everything else that you want to do. And without it, you're just aimlessly wandering around doing things that maybe feel like obligations or expectations, or other people's shoulds or supposed to's, and none of that ever felt feels good. So grounding yourself in that bigger picture of why I love that you share that your "Why" was to get kids excited for school. And the truth is, if you weren't excited to go to school, I can't imagine the kids being excited for school. So how does that "Why" or that bigger picture connect to the educator, even outside of school?

Lily Jones
Yeah, I think it connects to feeling aligned to what you're doing, and feeling like you are like, that's what makes it sustainable to me. I think that when I was teaching so much of what felt unsustainable, and so much what I see with other teachers is because we're asked to do things in a way that's not connected to our why, or maybe we don't believe in the why. And so maybe it's a curriculum that's really teacher heavy, or scripted. And we have kids here who are like, so curious and excited about learning that we're like, oh, we want to be able to interact with them and like go off of that curiosity and have that freedom and that agency to change up the curriculum we're using. But because we're told that we have to teach this certain way, or using this certain very, like stringent curriculum, it feels not aligned. And that's what causes so much of the frustration. And that's on so many levels. That's just one example. And so I think that frustration comes from not being, not having that agency to go after and to act aligned to your why. And so that carries over in all areas. I mean, that doesn't feel good anywhere, right? Like, I don't want to parent like that. I don't want to be in my marriage like that. I don't want to be a friend like that. I want to be very purposeful and to be able to act aligned to what I believe or when I think my bigger Why is. And so I think it really that frustration is real, and it doesn't feel good. And it especially doesn't feel good as a teacher to know, my kids, or I could be doing this better, and not have the power or the capacity to change that. And so I think it just spills out into other areas, too. You can't just turn it off.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, I agree. And so in creating that space to process through those feelings of frustration, or even anger, resentment, even though it doesn't feel good, we have to still process through them, then having the space to reconnect to your why or really maybe even creating a new one, because perhaps you're at a different place than you were when you first started teaching. How then can you use that to create an education system or a space that you want that that you dream of that really aligns with that "Why"?

Lily Jones
Yes, I think it starts with seeing that it's possible, or allowing yourself to believe that it's possible. And just to give an example, going back to me being like, I want to create a learning environment that kids feel excited about learning and feel really excited about the curriculum that they're doing. When I thought about what wasn't working for me as a teacher, it was all the things that weren't that. And so when I thought about, could I just focus on creating exciting learning experiences? At first, I kept having this voice in my head being like, no, no, who does that? No, you're a teacher, you have to do all these things, being a teacher comes with this huge list of things that you do. And so just seeing that possibility took time. And I had to explore different options of like, oh, this person says, their writing curriculum, what does that look like? What could I do in that way? And so I think that detangling a little bit of what you're feeling, and getting to your why it's not like you snap your fingers. Just see how it happens, or even to know what your "Why" is. It's a process so and so I think staying open to it, and having inquiry with yourself of like, okay, could I do this? What's possible? And then in those moments of possibility, really thinking about both cognitively like, does this connects to what I want to do? does this connect to what I enjoy? does this connect to the purpose that I want to or that I have or the difference I want to make? But also the feeling of it? Does it feel good? Does this feel like the right next step to me? And I think we can't be in that feeling. When we're so overwhelmed. Just like you said, we have to process all the emotions and all the things and detangle, do all this work before we can even get to this moment of really clearly knowing being like, this is my why. And this is how it feels to be aligned to my why. And so I think, again, like this is one of the things going back to what you asked at the beginning that like, it can seem really flippant and like, oh, think about your why. But it's because it's like, yeah, I can't just a second as a busy teacher, but I can, it was more of like an ongoing exploration and commitment.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, I love that ongoing exploration. And I want to talk a little bit about something you said right there about doing things that feel good. I think and laughing because it's just so interesting to me. And this has been a part of my story, too, throughout my career, this idea that there's this false dichotomy of feeling good and working hard. And they're mutually exclusive. And maybe if you work hard enough, you might feel good. But if things feel easy and aligns and wonderful, then I can't possibly be working hard enough. Can you talk a little bit about how we can deconstruct that story and write a new one?

Lily Jones
Yes, absolutely. I totally appreciate that framing of it too. Because I think especially as teachers, right, we have a badge of honor, almost. We're working so hard, we're staying so long after the bell. We're doing all these things. And because we're working so hard, then we're a good teacher. And that's not necessarily connected. And so and it's just generally society, like Yeah, work so hard. And then hopefully, in 30 years, retire and enjoy yourself. How about we enjoy ourselves now. And so I think it absolutely is not mutually exclusive and needs to be disrupted, particularly for kids. I don't think this is a message we should be giving kids also, that like you have to hustle and study for a test to like get an A on a test. No, you should be in the moment excited and curious about what you're learning and empowered to go after the path that makes you feel excited and curious. And so I think all of that is like, misguided to have this idea that we have to hustle or work in a way that doesn't feel good to us to be able to do good work. I do think that it's so entrenched in so many layers, that again, it's like this detangling. But I think really the best work that you can do is the work that feels good and feels aligned to your purpose. I do think along with that, too, which I think you alluded to also that it's like, hard work isn't bad, like hard work, when it feels aligned to what you want to do is really exciting. I always give this example to teachers who are like, I'm a busy teacher, how are you asking you to do something on the side. And I'm always like, when you do the right thing, it feels good and energizing. When I was a burnout teacher and I started doing curriculum projects on the side, I had zero time. I did them late at night. I did them on the weekends. But it felt so good. Because I was being creative. I was developing my skills. I was learning something hard. And so I think that sometimes that joy does come from hard work. But when it's aligned to what you want to do, and you have that agency and like voice in it, it can be so powerful.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. And I think you hit the nail right on the head, when you're talking about your understanding your agency, and owning and appreciating the alignment. All of it is possible. You don't have to choose to feel good, or be a good teacher. They can be both. And I think that goes to back to what you were saying earlier about exploring your purpose creates an opportunity for you to expand your idea of what's possible. And our ideas of what's possible, unfortunately, can start off very limited, because we only have the evidence of what's already been done, what we've experienced what we've seen. And if we're thinking about potential, and possibility, we're in a realm of things that have yet to be done. Things that are outside of your comfort zone. So how do you bridge the gap for people to move from comfort to the discomfort of doing something they've never done before? Like feeling good? And being a good teacher?

Lily Jones
Yes, I think it all comes from like the discomfort is how we learn. And to me what's really grounding about that is being a teacher, teaching kindergarten where kids were learning how to read, and they were failing right over and over again. Every time they tried to read a word. It was really hard and they didn't get it right. And as a teacher, I knew that right? I knew like okay, you have to fail. You have to not be able to read this word 1000s of time. If you do, and I see you working at it, and I'm praising you for working out of it, and all the things along the way. And the same is true for us as roadmaps. When we try something new, it's gonna be hard. And we're gonna feel like we're quote, unquote, failing. But I think that failing is actually learning, when you don't give up on it when you feel committed to it. Everything that doesn't go right is giving you information and teaching you something. And so I think when you can have that same mindset that I think most teachers promote in their kids, but when it comes to us, it can be really hard. And I definitely said things to my kids all the time of like, oh, mistakes are how we learn. Like, here we go sending out these messages. And then when I tried to do things that were very outside of my comfort zone, leaving the classroom building my own business, like all the things, I found myself being like, oh, gosh, mistakes are how we all learn, but it's really hard. And so I think just acknowledging, that's how learning happens for everyone.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it's so ironic, right? That there's humor in all of this. And I think if you're able to even acknowledge the levity, and the irony in this, I think, lightens everything up a little bit. Here, we are literally telling children, it's okay, you're safe, you're smart, you're capable, we got you. And we don't treat ourselves that way. And unfortunately, the truth is, the messages that kids receive are more the ones that we show them with our actions, and less of actually what we tell them, which is why this is so important for us to embody ourselves, because our kids are watching us for how to be, and would like to guess that your kindergarten teacher was also quite similar and continue to encourage you while you were reading. And it went on again in first grade and second grade. And yet, as adults, those messages were not as deeply penetrating as the ones that we see in the other adults in our lives. So I'm so glad that you shared that. So what kind of strategies do you use personally, and or share with your clients and the educators you work with? To remind ourselves, remind yourself that it's okay, that you're still good and whole and capable?

Lily Jones
Yes. I mean, I think so much of it, that I dealt with, and a lot of teachers I work with it deal with is our identities are so tied to being teachers. And really, when I left the classroom, I was like, who am I, if I'm not a teacher, and so that led me down to a whole path of discovering, rediscovering and being able to articulate like, I am a whole human without being a teacher or not being a teacher. And so I think doing that work is really helpful for everybody that like, Yes, you are a teacher, that's part of who you are but it's not who you are. And so having that sense that no matter what I was doing as my profession, or what my personal life was like, I'm a whole human. And so acknowledging that, and really centering on that and building from there. And then going back to the mistakes, I think that building resilience, but having that being a goal and being very metacognitive, almost about what's happening, that is, hey, I'm taking a risk right now. And I'm gonna let's see how it goes. And if it works out, great. If it doesn't work out, I'm gonna learn from it. And so having that mindset I've found to be really helpful, really thinking through like, I do think that's important to say, when you go into things, but it's also important when things don't work out well, to think about what can I learn here? What's the opportunity? What is this challenging me to do right now? And also to create things that are more supportive for me in that moment? So it's Yeah, sure this project didn't work out or whatever it is, I'm feeling sad about it. How can I support myself? What kind of thoughts can I tell myself that would be more supportive in this moment? What can I do to take care of my body in this moment? So really thinking about everything and little learning experience or a chance to support yourself better? Or to be more aligned with what you want to do?

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, that's beautiful. And that goes along the lines of where I was hoping we would be going anyways was so it's great kind of segue here to really expanding this idea of teacher well-being. Because so often, we think about, we'll self-care and our minds go to bubble baths and massages and getting our nails done and taking a mental health day. And while I personally love all of those things, that is not how we create sustainable practices of self-care, nor does it directly relate to our holistic well-being, but the things that you were just describing really do, so can we talk a little bit more about at how we can expand our ideas of what that even looks like.

Lily Jones
Yes, absolutely, I spend a lot of my time thinking about how to truly support teachers. And I feel like it's an ongoing exploration. But I think a lot of it comes down to the purpose, and the agency, and empowering teachers to really act in a way that's aligned to what they believe. Because I do think just like we just talked about, when you act out, or are supposed to teach out of a place that is not aligned to what you believe, or what you want to do, or what you think these kids need, nothing feels good. And so really supporting teachers is honoring their expertise, giving them flexibility, to be able to change things up in the moment, giving them support and skills that like literally everybody, nobody knows everything. And so there's always an opportunity to learn more. And so I think the idea of like teacher created professional development paths, or paths that teachers can choose of like, this is an area that I really want to commit to, this is something that I need support on in my practice, like that can be really powerful, too, rather than saying, okay, everybody's learning about the science of reading, like, great, some people need to learn that some people maybe already know that. And so really giving that agency to teachers, I think is a huge part of it. I think another part of it is really seeing teachers as whole humans, and acknowledging all the things that means that we do need space, to process our feelings, and to share our feelings and to be supported and be in community with people who get it, we need financial freedom, I think that is a huge part that teachers are not supported with. And that leads to the whole feeling really frenzied, and really overdone. Because more than that 50% of teachers have a side job, often not in education. And so they may be working all day, and then going and doing DoorDash for three hours and then going home to their three kids that's not sustainable. And so I think that the financial piece is a huge part of supporting teachers too, to be able to have a more well-rounded and sustainable life. I could go on and on forever. But I think those are my initial starting points. And I really do think like the main what it all stems from is like really honoring and respecting teachers.

Jen Rafferty
Sure, I think that, that honoring and respecting teachers has to start with you honoring and respecting yourself. And there are so many messages from outside of us that are really harmful and hurtful for teachers that are truly disrespectful and I will say, even sometimes dehumanizing. And when we start to those messages, the stories that we then tell ourselves and then begin to manifest is like, well, we're not worthy of more time more space, asking for what we need more money, more availability, more resources. And so it's this constant negative feedback loop that we've created for ourselves. And as RuPaul says, "If you can't love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love somebody else?" And I think the same thing goes into play here, where if we're not really able to honor and respect ourselves, we cannot expect that behavior to go outwards, either. And so coming back, I think really full circle to knowing who you are and why you do what you do is going to light the way for the What, the How things are played out. So I think that's all really spot on with all of that, in your experience and working with teachers, what are some of the obstacles that you find that teachers face?

Lily Jones
I think feeling really boxed in, which goes back to not being able to see the possibilities, especially like I taught in a large school district for my first couple years of teaching. And I was around teachers who were basically on the same track as me, right? They were paying into their retirement, they were looking forward to their pension in 30 years and they didn't ever talk about anything, but like, what do you do in the summer, they talked about their things, but in terms of their career, what do you do in the summer, and then we're coming back again next year. And so really seeing this narrow way made me feel really stuck. And so I think it comes down to like seeing the possibilities of what's out there and allowing yourself to really go after them or just know that there are other things out there, whether it's like something beyond the classroom or something personally that you want to do. But really being able to see that I think really is the first step. And then supporting teachers after seeing that it's possible. I don't think it's automatic that it's believing it. There's a little bit of integration time for a lot of integration time sometimes of like, I see other people who are doing this and then that brings up a lot of feelings sometimes, but I couldn't do this oh, they must have their master's degree to be able to lead this professional development session or whatever it is, we make a lot of excuses, or have feelings come up as we see other people go down their path so that either can be encouraging or not. And so I think really examining that to have like, as you're looking at possibilities, what feelings come up for you all feelings are fine feelings come up for all of us. But I think really what I've seen in working with teachers, and from my own work, like when we acknowledge our feelings, we can move past them intentionally. And so really considering like, seeing the possibilities, how does it feel when you imagine going after this possibilities in like, does it feel aligned to what you want to do? And also like, how possible does it actually feel to you? And then no, like, it's a process, people often come to me and I totally get it, wanting an overnight fix, and very few really awesome things are overnight fixes. It's a process and through that process, going back to like, learning opportunities, that's how we learn and evolve. And so I think making that commitment and having that awareness that once you commit to something, you can do it, I do believe that, but it takes time. And it takes working through all the things that come up along the way. And so I think part of that is being in community, part of what makes that easier is being in community with other people. And that's really what I've tried to create an educator forever is like, Well, I wish I had when I left the classroom is other people doing similar things. Because I've seen and had that experience myself, it's so much easier when you're around other people who also see your possibilities, who also have had these obstacles who can help you see that it's an obstacle, it's not an end. And so really having that big picture. And committing to it as a journey, I think are the best things you can do.

Jen Rafferty
I totally agree with everything, and particularly about that community. Community is one of the most powerful things that we can create for ourselves and if you are listening, and you haven't found your people yet, they are out there and reach out to either Lily or me, and we will either invite you into our communities or direct you to places where you might find relation to other communities. It is essential to find your people, because that is how we grow. And it's a beautiful part of our humanity, I would say one of my favorite parts, community. So my question to you kind of in this vein that that we've been going in this whole conversation, which has been so wonderful, what is your dream for the future of education? What do you want?

Lily Jones
Yes, I want way more joy. And so I want everything to be joyful, not everything right? I'm not saying there's not going to be hard times, like, again, all feelings are welcome. But I think what schools need is more joy and engagement and getting kids to play a role in that and teachers to play a role in that, and sharing the responsibility for that joy and engagement. And so when I think about schools in the future, it makes me really excited to think about kids exactly what I said was my bigger why right, coming into the classroom and being really excited teachers coming into the classroom being really excited and feeling supported all the ways. That's what I want to see. And a lot of what I have two school aged kids who are in great schools, but you know, a lot of what I see with them and their peers is not quite there yet. And so really thinking about centering joy, and I think that comes with really making room for both more student voice and more teacher voice and agency. And thinking about what's really important in education, you know, going back again, to the bigger why, why are we doing these things? Why are we teaching these things? Why are we teaching them this way? And so really examining that to get to a whole lot more holistic and effective experience?

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. Oh, can you just imagine for a minute, just, just closing my eyes and thinking about what that would look like if school systems in general valued joy as much as they do graduation rate?

Lily Jones
Yes, totally. Yes, absolutely. I think so much of it, to me goes back to like, I mean, I've talked about this liberally forever, but goes back to self-directed learning, like kids get so excited about learning things, whether it's like how to beat a video game, or like, what this bug is like outside kids get so excited about that and I think that is already there. But often schools, sadly do not foster that. And so I think it's like the ingredients are there, right? We have teachers who know the impact they want to make who want to help people who want to do really cool things in the classroom. We have kids who fundamentally do want to learn and they do want to be supported and they do want to have healthy well-rounded life. So we have all the ingredients. It's just like how do we put it together to me it actually work?

Jen Rafferty
Yes. I love that. More of that. Yes. So Lily, how can people learn more about you and get in touch with you?

Lily Jones
Yeah, absolutely. So educator forevers website is educatorforever.com, you can find out more about all of our offerings. They're my very favorite offering right now is our educator forever network, which is our membership community, where we have amazing people doing all the things that we talked about, I really see it as like a meditation on how to really support teachers to thrive. And we keep adding wellness circles and co-working sessions and all the things like it is focused on helping people get jobs beyond the classroom, but also really be supported as whole humans and reimagine what it means to be an educator. So definitely go check that out or any of our other offerings. We have curriculum programs, which are all about connecting to your why and creating the curriculum you hope to see in the world. So check on our website. We're also on Instagram @educatorforever, and you can always email me at lily@educatorforever.com

Jen Rafferty
Beautiful and all of those links are gonna be right in the show notes. So it'd be super easy for people to get in touch. So thank you so much for your time and for your talents and for all the work you do in this world.

Lily Jones
Thank you same to you. It's so great to talk with you.

Jen Rafferty
So great to talk with you. And if you love today's episode, please be sure to give it a five star review, share with a friend and we'll see you next time on take notes.

Jen Rafferty
Incredible, right? Together we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at empowered educator faculty room on Facebook.

No time to eat well on busy work days? How mindful eating can help with Hannah McKitrick

Do you find yourself too busy to eat healthy as an educator?
What if I told you that nourishing yourself on busy work days is possible?
Join me and Hannah McKitrick as we talk about practical tips for making healthy eating simple and enjoyable, even in a busy schedule. Hannah is an alchemist culinary healer and the founder of My Intuitive Health.
As someone who had Crohn's disease, Hannah shares how balanced nutrition provided the key to improving her gut health. This nutritional healing involves food choices that bring her emotional satisfaction while still honoring her physical body.
We discuss the importance of health and nutrition and how the energy we bring in food preparation and eating also impacts our physical and emotional wellness.
If you're looking to find a harmonious balance between tasty and nourishing food, this episode is for you.
Tune in to discover how to nourish your soul from the inside out!

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room
About Hannah:
Hannah is an alchemist culinary healer who is paving a new way of health that ditches the diet and instead combines energy with food to bring more lightness into your entire being - physically, emotionally, and spiritually. She has studied culinary school in Italy, eastern medicine at the academy of healing nutrition, and even healed her own gut of crohns disease through food.
Her business, My Intuitive Health, has helped 100s of women truly nourish their “soul health” from the inside out, using food and connection as the catalyst that raises their vibration. She holds a healing yet playful space for women to have a ridiculous amount of fun while cooking healthy meals during her transformational cooking programs and culinary wellness retreats in southern Italy.
Connect with Hannah:
Website: https://myintuitivehealth.com/
IG: @hannah.mckitrick
FB: Hannah McKitrick

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and at the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:42
Hello, and welcome back to another fantastic episode of Take Notes. I am so excited to introduce to you our next guest which is Hannah McKittrick, who is an alchemist culinary healer, who is paving a new way of health that ditches the diet and instead combines energy with food to bring more lightness into your entire being physically, emotionally and spiritually. She has studied in culinary school in Italy Eastern Medicine at the Academy of Healing Nutrition and even healed her own gut of Crohn's disease through food. And her business My Intuitive Health has helped hundreds of women truly nourish their soul health from the inside out using food and connection as the catalyst that raises their vibration. She holds a healing yet playful space for women to have a ridiculous amount of fun while cooking healthy meals during her transformational cooking programs and culinary wellness retreats in southern Italy. Hannah, thank you so much for coming on to the show. I can't wait to start this conversation.

Hannah Mckitrick 01:41
Yes, me too. Me too.

Jen Rafferty 01:44
So, I want to know, before we really dive into what you're doing now, your story I know resonates with so many people. And I would love it if you would take a few moments and share what led you down this path to healing through culinary arts and food.

Hannah Mckitrick 02:00
Yeah, great question. So, I love food. I think it's so yummy and so great. And when I was 12, I got diagnosed with Crohn's disease. And I was eating like what normal 12-year-old would eat, lots of chicken fingers and fries. I wasn't really into vegetables. And I was really just eating whatever I wanted. And I was hospitalized frequently with flare-ups in my stomach. And it wasn't until I was 19 that the doctors were going to have to do surgery, because the flare-up that I had after my freshman year at college was so big. And that was when I was like, Okay, this feels like a discomfort big enough that I actually want to change my diet, right? Because beforehand, I was like I don't want to change what I'm eating like, that won't even work. And the doctors were giving mixed results about what to eat. And I didn't really trust them.

Hannah Mckitrick 02:56
And so finally, I found this holistic practitioner who uses food to actually heal your gut. And so I worked with him for a couple of months and ate like tons of vegetables, and whole grains. And that was it for a couple of months. And that really reset my gut and cleared it of all the toxins. And it worked. But it was also very, very, very rigid and strict, which did not work for me. And so on a physical level, it was working, but on an emotional level, it was not. And so in the years following that, I learned how to really bring back the type of foods that really brought me that emotional satisfaction while still honoring my physical body. So I had this kind of foundation of health through the vegetables, through the whole grains, really simple. But then I also was able to add back in like cookies and wine and pizza with friends like, I was going back to college. And it's been 11, almost 12 years and I haven't had a flare-up since.

Hannah Mckitrick 04:03
And the reason I think this is cool is because I don't eat perfectly by any means. Like I just told you like some of my vices like, I have cookies in my freezer now like, I just had a bite of a cinnamon bun before getting on this call. But I also had my protein smoothie and all of that stuff. And what became clear, the more that I did this and the more that I worked with clients is that it is about the physical food that you're eating, but it's also about the energy that you're bringing to your food. And so for me like that cinnamon roll, like I made myself and like it's really yummy, and I was really happy when I was making it and I was really happy when I was just eating it versus shaming myself being like, Oh, you're so bad. Why you eating this, like, your son was gonna hurt like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so that's kind of like the mind-body connection that I think has been really transformational for me.

Jen Rafferty 04:55
Wow, that's tremendous. And I have so many follow-up questions for you. I think I want to start with what you were saying, I also have a 12-year-old, he's gonna be 12 this week, and he eats like a 12-year-old just like how you described. And I think, for me, too, I was a child of the 90s, like late 80s, early 90s. And we ate a ton of food that was convenient, and easy, fast, and processed because that's what was available. And a lot of times, my parents did the best they could. But sometimes health was sacrificed because of things like convenience or budget or so, there seems to be this underlying belief that food needs to be either easy or healthy. And what you were just describing is not that at all. So, can you talk a little bit about how you address those underlying beliefs that people have, that were developed when they were kids?

Hannah Mckitrick 05:59
Yeah. And so, I really like to find the sweet spot. My business is called Intuitive Health. And the reason is because I believe that there is a health for every single person that you can create and discover that feels so natural, and automatic, and effortless because it combines what your body wants, what your mind wants, and what your soul wants. And so, for people who want easy and convenient and healthy, I say, Absolutely, let's figure out how to make that happen.

Hannah Mckitrick 06:32
For instance, if a recipe in a class that I'm cooking calls for a butternut squash, I will for sure encourage people to buy the pre-cut butternut squash because Okay, yeah, maybe it's not as fresh as the whole butternut squash that you like, picked out of your own garden, but it's getting vegetables into your system. And it takes away some of that mental stress of like, oh my god, I have to peel it, I have to scoop out the seeds, I hate scooping out the seeds, versus open the package dump on your pan, and then season it. And so there are ways to really combine that ease with convenience. Again, it's not about perfection by any means. It's just about what will give you the most bang for your buck. And so foods that are naturally like, food is energy. And so a butternut squash is naturally higher in nutrients than something that's more processed. But it's about choosing.

Jen Rafferty 07:26
Yeah, I think the part of the story that really resonated with me was of these false dichotomies that we've created, that food is either physical or emotional. And if it's helping you out physically, then it must be hard emotionally, or in order for it to be easy, then it can't be healthy. And so when I'm hearing you say in your story is that those dichotomies are completely false.

Hannah Mckitrick 07:53
Yeah, and one thing that I do really like to flip the script on is bringing that comfort to the healing foods. Because again, like maximize best of both worlds, right, and I'll give you an inside peek to my fridge right now. So, I had a friend over on Saturday night, and I made a homemade green goddess Greek dressing with basil and Greek yogurt and roasted sweet potato with curry powder, Pharaoh, and made a salad with chopped kale, goat cheese, and avocado. And so it's like, the chopped kale with the warm sweet potato, the warm Pharaoh and like this creamy dressing with the creamy cheese, and then the silky avocado. Yes, it's a salad. But like, it's so yummy. Like, I'm so excited for dinner tonight, because I'm craving it and I have leftovers. And again, that was Saturday night. It's Tuesday. I'm not lifting a finger. It's all easy, convenient there. It took me 30 minutes to like cook it once. And then I have it for a couple of days. And it satisfies me on a physical and emotional level.

Jen Rafferty 08:57
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think what you say about raising your vibration through food, even just you retelling that story, I was fully caught up on how yummy that could be. I felt my vibration raise a little bit. So, can you talk about how you explain this to people or maybe open up the door so they can discover how to raise their vibration through food?

Hannah Mckitrick 09:19
Yeah. So, the first thing I'll say is that it's definitely an embodied experience, right? I know you're a teacher, and there might be some teachers listening, but it's not necessarily like here's my flip chart and like here's how to get like step 1-2-3-4. Like I do actually have a five-step process, but it's more about the fifth step in the process is embodying that it's going through the motions of actually cooking and bringing this intentional energy and having fun while you're doing it to your foods. So, that is part of the process.

Hannah Mckitrick 09:53
But to paint people a picture it's, if you picture yourself eating, for me, sometimes I'll eat, say a piece of cake. And sometimes I'll feel a little sluggish or not amazing. Versus if you go to a cafe that's an all-organic like, crunchy granola hippie type of like food is love cafe and you get this like bootable with a sauce, and you can just taste it and it's so fresh. And as you're eating it, you feel good, like you feel like your energy is getting elevated mentally and physically. So you feel happier, you feel lighter, you feel more peaceful. There's also this peace of congruence because a lot of people who are mindful and into self-growth or into self-reflection, they want to be healthy, right? A lot of us have really good intentions of being healthy.

Hannah Mckitrick 10:49
And so when you're able to give yourself that experience of eating a nourishing meal that is packed with nutrients, there is this congruent experience that really satisfies you. And it feels fulfilling because it's I want to be healthy, and I'm doing it. And so that's part of it, like the mental and then the physical nutrients of the food, foods that are closer to the earth or more simply have one ingredient so quinoa, avocado, broccoli, Brussel sprouts, whatever. Those foods naturally have a higher vibration than something that's been more processed and more handled with more ingredients. And so the simpler the food, the more energy and nutrients it has. And so that's a really basic way, if you want to experiment tonight in your own kitchen, you could think of a meal that has as few ingredients as possible. And then as you're making it be intentional and be excited about what you're making and how it's going to taste. And that combination helps to elevate your energy.

Jen Rafferty 11:57
Yeah, it's an elevation of the whole experience of eating. And I love the word embodiment, that is something that we talk a lot about here in Take Notes and through Empowered Educator that it's not enough to just speak it, you have to be it. And that's really where the change happens. And you use the word congruence a lot. And in my world, we use the word alignment, which is the same thing and really aligning your actions with who you want to be that congruence makes all of the difference in who you are in it as you walk through your days.

Hannah Mckitrick 12:33
Exactly. And part of what I love is helping to make that alignment as easy and intuitive as possible for people because like you said, some people have in their head that healthy has to be boring and not convenient. But I'm like, no, let's make it really fun. Let's make it really tasty. And let's make it really easy for you. And so it's like painting a new experience for someone that they can do instead.

Jen Rafferty 12:58
So, I will also be honest with you in my experience in the kitchen, I used to love cooking, I really did. And then there came a point where I just stopped. And there were a lot of changes that were happening in my life. And it did become harder. And I think a lot of teachers, especially teachers, who are in the Empowered educator world who are having to deal with a lot of stressors at work, come home. And one of the last things they want to do is think about what's for dinner. So can you talk us through and maybe this is for me, selfishly I want to know some of this. I know what to make for dinner. What is a really easy way to make this easier because you said it before it's this idea that it's hard that it's a hassle like

Hannah Mckitrick 13:45
Yeah, so I totally agree. Like people are like oh, like do you cook gourmet every single night and I'm like, no, like I haven't cooked since like, I said Saturday. And so one of the things I really like to do for me personally is have a sauce in the fridge. I make my own because they're so easy and usually has basil on it. So, like any type of pesto or like the green goddess dressing like any type of sometimes I'll do like a yogurt tahini sauce. Those are like my three top ones. And then from there, have one cooked like vegetable in the fridge or cooked grain so like either roasted butternut squash or roasted like sweet potato or any like grain like quinoa or Pharaoh or even roasted Brussel sprouts or eggplant like something like that.

Hannah Mckitrick 14:35
So, you have your sauce and something that's already cooked. And then from there literally you could either make a grain bowl with the sauce and some cheese and avocado-like toppings or a salad just throw some lettuce on a plate, warm up whatever you have cooked in your fridge, put that on top, and then drizzle it with the sauce and toss it. That to me feels like the easiest because you can cook and it's not like this huge meal prep day like, you just have to cook two different things with a big enough quantity that will last you a couple days. And then on the night of you can kind of choose your own adventure. So, if you want something more refreshing and warm and cold, then you could do the salad with the hot ingredients. Or if you want something a little bit more hearty and nourishing, you can make it into a grain bowl.

Hannah Mckitrick 15:22
So, that's one thing I really like to do other than making one thing and making mass quantities of it. So, another dish I like to have on hand is spaghetti squash with pesto, artichokes, tomatoes, goat cheese, and like crispy chickpeas. So like that, for instance, I'm not going to be assembling it each night, but I'm going to make it and it'll make a lot of it and then I'll feed off of leftovers for a couple days. Yeah, so that's what I would recommend.

Jen Rafferty 15:50
Yeah, and that is easy because then you're not worrying about dinner every night. It's just there for you. So, the other challenge that I hear a lot from teachers is eating well during the day that often there isn't a lot of time, or there's a perception that there isn't a lot of time to eat. And there isn't the opportunity to raise their vibration, especially when they need it the most, which is during the day when they're giving so much energy to other people. So can we talk a little bit about that? And first of all, prioritizing, eating, and then what do we eat?

Hannah Mckitrick 16:25
Yes, sure. So first of all, if you like forgot your lunch, whatever you have to order, you can take 30 seconds, even 10 seconds. And just like take a moment and pause before you eat. And just picture how you want to feel during and after your meal. If all else is lost, you can bring that own mindful practice into your food. And that is a way to transform any food into raising your vibration. It's easier when the foods are hauled but that's a good little cheat. The other thing of what you should eat, first of all, I would kind of want to know the person, what they like, what they don't like, but I don't know that.

Jen Rafferty 17:04
Yeah. And you do make it sound so easy. And I think also to go back to what we kind of were talking about, there are so many benefits of cooking and making your own food and you mentioned bringing your own emotional energy to the food. Can you tell us a little bit more about that process?

Hannah Mckitrick 17:04
So, I'll tell you what I would pack for a day because I used to commute to work and I'm someone who like, on travel days, on airplanes like I will pack three meals because talk about foods that have high vibration, airport is the opposite of that. And so I like to pack my own foods. So for breakfast on a travel day, for instance, I would do either hard-boiled eggs with salt and pepper, and avocado just like in tin foil, you can throw it out, or Tupperware. Or when I used to commute, I would batch oatmeal. And you can use the whatever, rolled oats but I used some stuff from Whole Foods. It was some, I don't even think they make it anymore. It was called Oats Groats; it was like a really whole form of oatmeal. And so I would cook it over the stovetop with water and salts. And then during the week, I'd pack it with just a little peanut butter. And then I'd have my banana. So that's breakfast. Snacks, I like almonds, apples, any type of fruit. I also like peanut butter-stuffed pretzels, because that's my emotional balance that I bring into my day. So, take what you want. And then for lunch, I like salads for lunch. But like really yummy salads. I would do again like a homemade salad dressing. I think that is the number one thing to elevate the central experience of your lunch. So, usually, for me that's like some type of green basil dressing, or you could buy like a bottled organic dressing from wherever. And then I like lettuce, cucumber, pepper, some type of cheese, some roasted sweet potato. And that's what I like. And sometimes, you can even prep this hack two to three lunches at a time. And then, and have the ingredients and just so that you don't have to do it every single night like a robot. It's, you take time, roast whatever you want to roast. If you want something warm, whether it's chicken or sweet potato, and then chop your lettuce into the Tupperware, add your chopped fresh vegetables, add your other stuff, and then you have that for a couple days. That's what I would eat.

Hannah Mckitrick 19:32
Yeah. So there was this study done once and it was with two apples and one apple was spoken to really positively all week. It was like you're so beautiful. You're amazing. Like yes, queen, you grow that apple, whatever. And then the other apple was shamed all week and it was like you're so bad, you're awful, you're too big or too whatever. Then like that type of energy. And at the end of the week, they cut the two apples in half, and the one that was shamed all week was rotten.

Hannah Mckitrick 20:05
And so I feel like that gives a really clear example of how impactful the words that we speak to ourselves and to our food are, and how you have a lot of power in that. And that's not something that's really talked about that often. And it should be and I love that this generation is now really into like, anti-diet culture and like not body shaming. And I think that's amazing because your system, if you're shaming yourself, or even if you're like this food sucks like you're literally increasing your stress hormones in your body and like raising your cortisol level, which makes it harder for you to digest your food versus when you're speaking positively, when you're calming your mind. It increases the dopamine and the serotonin in your body, which actually helps speed up your digestion.

Jen Rafferty 20:59
It is so powerful. And we really do underestimate every single word that leaves our lips, particularly when it comes to our bodies and the food that we eat. So, if we're bringing this beautiful intentionality, and energy to the food that we're cooking, and the food that we're eating, I'm making this connection here that it is then inherently going to be healthier.

Hannah Mckitrick 21:25
Yeah. And health is not black and white. Like, how do you define a person's health? It's not their weight. Hell, no. It's not how much they walk a day. It's not what they eat. It's a whole package. And so, you bringing positive emotion to your physical food that you're digesting, how, yeah, that makes you healthier, that makes your food healthier, because you're literally able to digest it more easily. And in the process, you're increasing the pleasure hormones in your brain. And that's really healthy. And it's bringing you to the present moment of enjoyment. And so I would say yes, it is healthier.

Jen Rafferty 22:05
Yeah. And I think this is another moment of beautiful embodiment. Because when you start to incorporate these practices into your life, into your cooking, into your eating, the kids around you are watching. Everyone's watching you. It is to learn how to be a human in this world. And to have an example of someone who is very intentional and mindful, and almost praising their food and their experience, that's a game changer for how they're going to then grow up and create habits for eating.

Hannah Mckitrick 22:36
Yeah, and I just want to like highlight again, that it's not about perfection, like it's not about only cooking foods with one ingredient, whatever. But it is about like, when you do want to have processed food because I do enjoy snacks, don't make yourself wrong for it. That's the number one thing, don't make yourself wrong. And then there won't be this mental dialogue of "You're so bad and you're so this," but you will naturally by not cutting any restrictions and not making yourself wrong. Your body and mind will naturally want to do the things that serve you and so, for me packing my food for an airport travel day, I'm not like shaming myself like you have to eat healthy, but I just like my food better at this point. Because of how it tastes and because of the way it makes me feel. And when Delta gives me the light Biscotti, those yummy Biscoff cookies like, I eat those and I'm like, oh my god, this is so yummy. This is like crunchy. This is satisfying, like, you know traveling, I burn more energy. And so it's giving yourself a lot of grace and allowing what you naturally want to making that okay.

Jen Rafferty 23:06
Right. And that really brings us back to that congruence and alignment. If you are choosing a processed snack, make it align, make it congruent.

Hannah Mckitrick 24:00
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Make yourself radically right.

Jen Rafferty 24:04
Hmm, I like that radically right. I love alliteration also. So, bonus for that too. So, can we talk a little bit about the retreats that you give because this is also so cool and special. And I would love for you to share more about what those retreats are and what the experience and transformation is of the people that go to those retreats with you.

Hannah Mckitrick 24:27
Love to. Italy is like my favorite topic. So, I went to culinary school in Italy. I was 23. I had been working at a corporate job for a couple years and I was like, my soul was like sucked out already. And I was like I need to do something for me. And so, I gave myself a little sabbatical, quit my job, went to Italy, went to this like magic lands in Southern Italy in the middle of nowhere, with 180 views of the Ionian Sea and hands-on cooking all day long. And it was magical. And this is actually where I bring people on retreat now.

Hannah Mckitrick 25:07
And so their retreat is called Embody Your Light. And it's a culinary and wellness retreat. And the intention for people is that they come in with whatever they're coming in with, any problems, anything that's heavy, anything that's sticky, and they leave a lighter version of themselves. And so, it's kind of talking about that energy that we bring to food. It's like bringing that to yourself. And like having that be your unwavering beam of light that connects you up and down into your highest self. And so a woman, one in particular, like, after the retreat was like, she's quoted somewhere on my something, but she was like, I feel like I found myself again. But then she goes, actually, no, I feel like I found a better version of myself.

Hannah Mckitrick 25:56
And so it really is about letting go of all the shit that goes on like in your head, in your life, and connecting you back to your most joyous self. And it is on the retreat itself. It's both play and healing. And so, we do like hands-on cooking classes and demonstrations and pasta-making, cheese-making gelato, pizza, and then we'll do more intentional circles, healing circles of mind, body, soul, and what's present for you and blah, blah, blah, like getting a little bit deeper into that self-growth discussion. And then we have a shaman that comes. And so it's more of an energetic healing so that your mind doesn't have to think so hard. And then we just have fun. And so we do cocktail parties. We go to wineries, do tastings, day trips, and in the fun, in the letting go, it comes to healing.

Jen Rafferty 26:55
Yeah. Can you just say the last part again?

Hannah Mckitrick 26:58
Yeah, in the fun is the healing.

Jen Rafferty 27:02
Yes, we think that healing has to be so serious. And it's the complete opposite when we let go and have fun and let loose. That is actually what takes place. And I'm so glad that you said that because as you were describing it, that's kind of I was on this visual journey with you, as you were explaining each part of this. And you're right, educators often don't get the opportunity or feel as if they don't have the opportunity to invest in themselves in this way. But the truth is, you do. And when you do, you have the opportunity to remove yourself from, as you said, from all of the shits. So, you can be in a place where you have the freedom and a safe space to be light and fun to then heal and come back an elevated version of yourself. And there's nothing quite like it than being on a retreat like this.

Hannah Mckitrick 28:03
And it's life is so short. And if you're not giving yourself the best life you can dream of then like, what are you doing? And I have a tattoo on the back of my neck. And it says dolce vita, which I got when I went to Calabria, Italy for the first time, it means sweet life. And I got it because being there set the bar for how good life can be to me. And I never wanted to forget how sweet life could be. Because I was 23, I was going back home, I was going back into corporate world but like I had this anchor of this is how good it can be. And so, for someone to be able to give themselves that for a week, it's like, why wouldn't you? And you know, we've talked a lot about like energy and vibration. And money is also a currency of energy. And so it's like you putting your money into what you truly want that lights you up. That's like a fun experience. That's you energetically saying yes. To more of that. And then the universe comes in magical ways to meet you there.

Jen Rafferty 29:13
Yeah, yeah. 100%. And then you start to ask some really good questions like, how good can it get?

Hannah Mckitrick 29:20
Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 29:20
And that's when more doors open. And you and I've talked briefly about this before we were recording when we first met, it's limitless.

Hannah Mckitrick 29:29
Totally.

Jen Rafferty 29:30
Yeah. And so exciting. So, I need to ask the question I asked every one of my guests on this podcast is from your perspective and in your arena, what is your dream for the future of education?

Hannah Mckitrick 29:42
So, I think it would be a really fun and it's also hard for me to even imagine this because I had traditional education. But now I'm in my 30s and everything I invest in like, I didn't get my masters or anything like that, but I've invested in transformational coaching programs, in intuition coaching, in stuff like that. And the feminine soft skills, if you will, the intuitive brain even like how I was just talking about money and energy like, that is scientifically proven. And it's, I didn't learn about that in school, like I learned about that in, in this era of my life. And I think it is so fascinating. And I also think it's really helpful.

Hannah Mckitrick 30:28
So like, in school, you learn to like, work hard, and then get this result. But in the real world, I've personally seen and maybe you have to, as a business owner, like, your hard work is not necessarily directly correlated with your success. And rather, it's actually when you lean back a bit and allow and receive and be open and fluid and slowly that like, the success comes like that. And to me, that's fascinating. And I'm currently and have done a lot of work to rewire my brain of how to create the life I want. So, yeah, any, like intuition, anything, I don't know how you would talk about it to like five-year-olds, but I watch my sister parent her kids, and she definitely sneaks in there. So, I think there's possibilities.

Jen Rafferty 30:30
Yeah, well, we're dreaming so anything's possible.

Hannah Mckitrick 31:18
Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 31:21
Yes, I agree. I have also had to intentionally rewire my brain, as a former overachiever, perfectionist, to realize that the hard work isn't necessarily the thing that's going to bring the result that I actually want.

Hannah Mckitrick 31:41
Yeah, and I think it's even similar with food. It's like bringing you back to yourself, to your intuition, to what works for you, is what creates the most like harmony and ease in your life. And so bringing that into the classroom to like, even micro examples of we're going to learn about Math, stuff like that, I don't know. I don't even know how they would do it. But like, just giving people the power to bring in their own inner knowing and less of the this is how it's done or get out.

Jen Rafferty 32:13
Oh, beautiful. I love it. So how can people learn more about you and the work that you do?

Hannah Mckitrick 32:19
Yeah, so my website is myintuitivehealth.com. I have different programs coming up in the retreat, and I'm also on Instagram. It's just Hannah period. McKittrick, M C K I T R I C K.

Jen Rafferty 32:36
beautiful. And all of those links will be right there in the show notes. So, it'd be super easy for people to click and get in touch and learn all the things. Hannah, thank you so much for your time and your talents, and the work that you do in this world. I really appreciate you spending time here with me today.

Hannah Mckitrick 32:48
Thank you, Jen. And likewise, though, I mean, the work you're doing is freaking amazing. So it was awesome.

Jen Rafferty 32:55
Thank you. I received that. And if you love today's episode, which I know that you did, go ahead and write a five-star review, share with a friend, and don't forget to subscribe and we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty 33:07
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going on Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

How to develop your voice and deal with hard conversations for effective communication with Jennifer Abrams

Ever wondered how to voice your concerns without sparking conflict?
Even though teachers have credentials to teach and work with students, it is a different skill set to talk effectively with adults.
Effective communication with adults, colleagues, and administrators, allows educators to express their concerns without complaining and still maintain relationships, both personally and professionally. And that takes skill building, including naming their fears and hesitations and remembering that they are in a team.
So joining us today is Jennifer Abrams, an international educational and communications consultant and a trainer for coaches, teachers, and administrators, to talk about empowering educators through effective communication and dealing with hard conversations.
Jennifer also shares the need to balance one’s personal development and professional growth, the future of education through a human-centered approach, and why teacher support is essential.
There is power in your voice and the support systems around you. So, never shy away from asking for support because that’s a path to growth.
Here’s to your journey as an empowered educator!
Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Jennifer:
Jennifer Abrams is an international educational and communications consultant for public and independent schools, universities and non-profits. Jennifer trains and coaches teachers, administrators and others on new teacher/employee support, having hard conversations, collaboration skills and being your best adult self at work.
In her over two decades at Palo Alto Unified School District (Palo Alto, CA, USA), Jennifer was a high school English teacher, new teacher coach, and professional development facilitator. She left PAUSD in 2012 to start her full time communications consultancy in which she works with schools and organizations around the globe.

Jennifer presents at annual North American-based conferences such as Learning Forward, ASCD, NASSP, NAESP, AMLE, ISACS and the New Teacher Center Annual Symposium among others. Internationally, she facilitated with the Teachers' and Principals' Centers for International School Leadership (TTC and PTC) and presents with EARCOS, NESA, ECIS, AISA, AMISA, CEESA and Tri-Association, and consults with schools across Asia, Europe, the Middle East, Australia, New Zealand, South America and Canada.

Jennifer's publications include Having Hard Conversations, The Multigenerational Workplace: Communicating, Collaborating & Creating Community and Hard Conversations Unpacked - the Whos, the Whens and the What Ifs, Swimming in the Deep End: Four Foundational Skills for Leading Successful School Initiatives, and her newest book, Stretching Your Learning Edges: Growing (Up) at Work.

Jennifer has been recognized as one of "21 Women All K-12 Educators Need to Know" by Education Week's 'Finding Common Ground' blog. She considers herself a "voice coach," helping others learn how to best use their voices - be it collaborating on a team, presenting in front of a group, coaching a colleague, supervising an employee. Jennifer can be reached at jennifer@jenniferabrams.com, www.jenniferabrams.com, and on Twitter @jenniferabrams.

Connect with Jennifer:
Website: www.jenniferabrams.com
IG: @jenniferbethabrams
X: @jenniferabrams
LinkedIn

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty
As an educator, you are well versed in your content area, and you know a ton about pedagogy and different strategies about how to teach kids. But sometimes the real challenges occur in the interpersonal relationships with the other adults. Effective communication takes skill building, including naming your fears and hesitations and remembering that we really are here in this together. So joining us today is Jennifer Abrams, an international educational and communications consultant. And we talked about how we can empower educators through effective communication and navigating hard conversations, because your voice is powerful, and so is your ability to create support systems around you so that you can continue to show up as your best self. And to support you and building that team, I am so excited to share that Empowered Educator is offering one to one coaching for educators who are ready to step into a life without the pressure and stress and wants to leave the unending frustration behind. It's not that you don't want these things. It's that you don't believe that it's actually possible for you. But Empowered Educator one to one coaching will give you the tools to live your life both at work and at home with more ease, more joy, aligning with who you want to be in this world. Everything changes when you say yes to yourself, learn more at empowerededucator.com

Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I'm here with the wonderful Jennifer Abrams, who is an international educational and communications consultant for public and independent schools, universities, and nonprofits. Jennifer trains and coaches, teachers, administrators, and others on new teacher and employee support, having hard conversations, collaboration skills, and being your best adult self at work. Jennifer, thank you so much for being on the show. We have so many parallels and things in common with the work that we do, I cannot wait to have this conversation.

Jennifer Abrams
Well, Aloha from the North Shore of Oahu where I am. I'm here. I'm working. I'm doing zooms. And thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Jen Rafferty
It is my pleasure. So let's dive in. Right before we recorded, I was so excited that your blog is called Voice Lessons. I'm partial to that. And really my mission here at Empowered Educator is to inspire people to discover their voice. And your word for next year, you said was empowered on that blog. Can you talk a little bit about finding your voice and feeling empowered using it?

Jennifer Abrams
Yeah, I think that when I do my work on hard conversations, I can also say, finding your voice around what matters. I think that many of us have credentials. I mean, I think we feel this way that we have credentials on how to teach. We have credentials in how to work with students at different grade levels. We know our subject matter. We don't have as much comfort, I think, or credential background and how to talk effectively to adults. So we shirk away, or get frustrated by, or do whatever, around that kind of stuff. And so I want to empower people to develop. It isn't that they should feel like a loser it isn't that they should feel like they don't have what it takes. It really is a skill set. And I want to empower people to develop that because I think that they will thrive in their school with more effectiveness and find it more joyful if they have a capacity to talk more effectively with the other adults in the school.

Jen Rafferty
Oh, 100%. And I think what happens is, we grow up, we go through adolescence, we get to a certain age, and I think we're just expected to know how to do this. But like you said, it is a skill set. And unless we are learning it explicitly, like algebra or chemistry, we don't necessarily have the right tools to use to communicate effectively. So, what are some of those tools that we think we have, but we're really missing the mark a little bit?

Jennifer Abrams
All of that is skill-building. And so I think I want to empower people to say you shouldn't just think you should know it. Don't panic. It isn't something that was probably taught to you. My parents didn't teach me that. I'm from Minnesota or No, yeah, you betcha. We're nice people. I don't have some of those verbal skills. And so let's teach them to each other so that we can be more effective.

Jennifer Abrams
So I think that when we need to express a concern, and not have it be a complaint, there's a way to do that. I think on how to have a hard conversation with somebody that you still want to be in relationship with and do it in a humane and growth-producing way. How do you do that? We're talking about skills. We're talking about developing a capacity to do that. I need to learn how to apologize more effectively. I needed to learn how to coach new teachers. I needed to learn how to facilitate a group and to bring people back. I needed to manage resistance at the beginning of a team meeting.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, and you said the word nice that I kind of glommed on to a little bit because growing up for me, too, it was super important to be nice. And what nice meant was no conflict. They were mutually exclusive. You couldn't be nice and express a concern. And so navigating that as an adult has been very difficult until I've now established some tools and I've done learning myself. But conflict is inevitable, and it doesn't have to come at the expense of being nice. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Jennifer Abrams
Yeah, I think that we need to acknowledge that we have what Kegan and Lahey, two professors from Harvard would say we have competing commitments. We want to be nice, but we're committed to speaking up. They're not mutually exclusive. You can be respected. You might not be seen as nice all the time. But is that exactly what you need? So we need to work on competing commitments, fear of not being liked, fear of not being perfect, fear of How do I do this with, they're my friend in small towns, and they're my colleagues. So how do I change hats?

Jennifer Abrams
We need to name our fears and our hesitation. So that's one thing that we could do. And then we need to actually ask ourselves two things. One is, are we sure that we ever had a clarifying conversation with somebody about this? Like you have expectations in your head, but have they been made clear? Are the agreements out there? Are the expectations stated? So, maybe you don't even need to have a hard conversation, you just need to re-member yourself to that relationship and go over agreements or things that you think will help.

Jennifer Abrams
The other thing is if you're going to have a conversation, and you got to be ready for what do you want to see instead of what you're seeing. And not to say it in a, "You're a loser if you have to have me spell it out for you." Actually, they asked for that. Yeah. So this goes with all of these workshops I do on clarifying conversations and having hard conversations and all of that, but it's not, it seems so logical when people, I was just in a training as I'm here in Hawaii, and I was in a training and somebody goes, "Wow, this is exactly what we know." Yeah, we know this, we don't do this. And so they felt very validated and embarrassed because it was like, unless it's on the front burner, unless it's what we think about all the time, we just don't do it, even though we know better. Yeah, just don't do better.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, I think so often, we, I found and maybe this is similar to your experience, people don't often need more information. They need reminders.

Jennifer Abrams
Yes, exactly. It's exactly. And so I always talk about it as remembering, because you had a team that you were on. And let's just remember ourselves to being on the team and really viewing what the best practices are, or what the statements are, the agreements that we're going to have are. Remember. Review. And I often say, let's be two feet in the present. We forgot, but now let's just re, just be, to fit in the present. And it's, whoa, we have to get back to it.

Jennifer Abrams
I have a personal trainer that I work with when I'm at home, and I travel for work. And so it's so funny because I really shouldn't need him. Right? I should know that I've done this for years. And if I go to that machine, I should know how to use the machine. I don't remember what my weight was, I don't remember exactly the perfect way to do it. And he's there to remind me how to do it the right way. And so we almost need sometimes some people that actually just steer us back to remind us about the container, remind us about our best practice, because we fall back, we regress. And in order to elevate to be our best selves, we sometimes need a support.

Jen Rafferty
I think we always need a support. And part of that comes with really dropping your ego about the whole thing because if the ego gets in the way of I don't need support, and what does that mean about me if I'm asking for support, and the truth is, it doesn't mean anything about you, other than that you're committed to your growth and expansion. So.

Jennifer Abrams
I think that's stunning. I think that's beautiful.

Jen Rafferty
Thank you. You know, ask for the help get the support. Because we are not meant to do this by ourselves.

Jennifer Abrams
I completely agree. I just was writing my next newsletter, where I'm offering people some new ways to work with me, that might not be that you are speaking to you, we need that one support person. We maybe need adjust in time, consult about something. You don't have to just make it up by yourself. You need that thought partner, that cheerleader to work with you in that one moment. And you're not weird, and you're not up for the task, and you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. But you just need, you need to check it out with somebody and kind of elevate yourself.

Jennifer Abrams
And sometimes people just think I've gotten the job, so I should just be able to do it. And that's not necessarily true. And I go to the gym and I asked for some help. And I don't cut my own hair. It's like there are so many, I call it the extreme self-care support team. And that includes thought partners and it includes my hairdresser, right? You know what I mean, you don't know what to do for my body, my doctor knows. So I just include people around me that actually allow me to be my best and so I don't feel like a loser for that.

Jen Rafferty
Isn't that beautiful? And what's so ironic to me about this is that this is how we take care of our kids. We provide IEPs for our kids that have a team of support. And we operate thinking that we need to go it alone. And we just, we don't have to and in fact, yeah, we're selling ourselves short. And therefore, our students short.

Jennifer Abrams
I think that idea of an individualized education plan and individual individualized, coaching plan, and individualized, I'm now a new leader, what kinds of knowledge, what kinds of skills, what kinds of like, you need to create a package of supports that will help that person begin to embody that position in a more self-managed and self-aware way, but it certainly isn't there from the beginning, at all, and frankly, not necessarily for me. However, many years into this work, I now realize, oh, I need even this much more support, I didn't even know and really, you can ask for that? And so I'm putting that in my next newsletter. If it's on the menu, it's in the back. And you can reshape it to fit. So if it's been on anybody's menu, ever seen it, you can actually ask for it. And you're not weird.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, I love that idea of the menu. It is so important to ask for help and ask for what you need because we can’t know everything. And that’s awesome because there’s always more to learn. So let’s talk a minute about conflict. You know, I grew up in a family where conflict was really uncomfortable. Conflict was something we avoided. And it was more important to be nice than to be heard. And I really had to unpack that myself in my own personal healing journey. And then, therefore, what I teach the people that I work with, because like we were saying at the beginning, they are not exclusive. And how can we learn the skills that we need to speak what's on our hearts, what's on our mind, to move the needle forward towards a common vision, especially when it comes to organizational structures, like schools, and do that in a way that feels good and empowering so you can go to bed at night saying I did a great job today. And that's really important work.

Jennifer Abrams
It's hugely important work and as leaders, that our emotional development, our psychological development, the work that you do on emotional intelligence, it isn't just a nice to have, it isn't... I always talk about like child development, absolutely. No problem. That's what we do in schools. Adult development, essential. And so we're working with people that might not be on that journey with us. They care deeply about students, they're not people that are cruel or mean. They themselves are on their own journey, and they haven't been supported.

Jennifer Abrams
And so for us to be on a journey of self-awareness, other-awareness, how do we do this? And a model for other people is hugely important. And to not, I've been working on not being as frustrated with other people when they're not where I want them to be. The answer is, what's the alternative? Love them where they are and model and support the concept of adult development in schools. Hugely essential.

Jen Rafferty
Absolutely. And I think there are some states that are getting this faster than others. For example, in New York State, they just updated their social-emotional learning benchmarks to include adults. I know. It's so exciting. And so I'm hoping that this is more than just a trend. This is something that people realize that it is in the research. And like you said, just a moment ago, our kids need models of adults, speaking to each other in ways that are healthy and safe, and productive. Because otherwise, we're just perpetuating this lack of skill set that isn't working, but it's not working. So something needs to change.

Jennifer Abrams
There's a, there's somebody that you should check out. And I don't know if the other things are as relevant. But there was a person on Instagram remains Mrs. Coleman and she's from Atlanta. She was on Insta, I don't know where I found it. I use this all the time. Someone is learning how to be a person by watching you. Let that sink in. And when I saw that, I thought about my nephews. I thought about the students. I thought about all my new teachers that I work with and the people that are aspiring leaders. How I say I'm going to manage something, how I'm going to suspend my certainty, how I'm going to share my hard conversations stuff to somebody. So they're learning how to be a person by watching me. So our social-emotional development is essential.

Jen Rafferty
So in your latest book, Stretching Your Learning Edges. Can you talk a little bit about some of the things that we can be really cognizant of as we're stretching? Our edges?

Jennifer Abrams
Yeah. So it's the first addition. And I've been in education since I was 22. And I've worked with new teachers, and I'm now 56. So we're looking at 34 years in the business trying to figure out where do we need to stretch in order to be even more effective as colleagues. One is, we've got to know ourselves better. That could be DEIB work. That could be I'm woke up white from the West Coast mainland of the United States. How do I see the world? How might that be different than other people? What do I need to understand about my history, my biases? it could be work style, it could be Myers Briggs, it could be all of that. It could be that I need to learn how to suspend my certainty. So my way isn't the only way.

And how do other people see things? I think that's hugely, it's just interesting. And I'm fascinated, somebody was telling me that they were working in their department at a county office, you would call BOCES in New York, but she was there, she said, our entire division is doing a winter theme. And we've decided to go with blue and white and silver. And I said, thank you, because not everybody celebrates Christmas. And she said it is so interesting that when I pose that idea, people have to suspend their certainty, Oh, I thought that everybody thought this way, it was no problem. And it was like, Oh my gosh, right? So those merged together, know your identity, and suspend your certainty.

Take responsibility for your side of interactions, and build your own resiliency so you don't emotionally pollute meetings. You're healthy psychologically and emotionally for people all because you should be, this is an assertion, we need to be value-add team members to the other adults in the school.

And so that's where the book goes, it's got five different facets, lots of lots of exercises, and readings and videos and self-assessments and all that. And it's been an interesting journey to think about it because new teachers that I was working with many years ago in my district, they were non-renewed, and they were non-renewed, as first and second-year teachers sometimes are. Many of them, because they didn't have the skills to be a good team member. But we never taught that. Because we think professionals should just be professionals.

So the work that you do around SEL, for adults, the work I do. This is like news. And it's not news. It's, it shouldn't be news. And yet, I think once the children and mental health and trauma-informed and social-emotional development really came to the fore with students after COVID. All of a sudden, it was like, Whoa, we should be teaching that, oh, we need it. And it was like, we've always needed it. This has amplified it and you know what, I'll take it, I'll take it whatever, unfortunate that COVID existed, and that we're still dealing with it, but it's a place that provided an opening to really say, Wow, we aren't just about academics, we're about a whole child as well. And that requires a whole adult.

Jen Rafferty
Sure does. And COVID stress, it wasn't anything new, but we couldn't ignore it anymore. That's what COVID did. We couldn't ignore the blaring sound alarms that like people were in trouble. And so now we're really starting to come around to it, which I'm also very grateful for because I'm sure as you've seen, when school communities really prioritize their own socio-emotional wellness, the kids perform better. There's less disciplinary referrals. There's less student absenteeism, less teacher absenteeism, there's higher engagement.

All of this is super tangible, and it's so easy to look at something like social-emotional skills and say important for the kids, but it's, we really don't need it. But if you're looking at those results, this is actually how you're going to get them and it's not by focusing on the test scores. It's just not, it's just not.

Jennifer Abrams
And then somebody goes, I'd like to piggyback on that. And he was a little less divisive, but he said it had never occurred to him, that he needed to be a better colleague, and what that would take from him, and he's really trying to wrap his head around that. Another person, lovingly, new teacher, goes, I just learned how to teach. And now you want me to be good with the adults too. That's a lot.

So we're preaching to the choir with each other. I did have one gentleman. And I'm really struggling as to how to shape this. So I'm just putting it out there, there was a gentleman in a International School, he was on one of the Zoom calls that I was on. And he was in one of those Brady Bunch boxes. And he was very clear, he said, the idea that I could develop myself to support students, no problem. That is what I do here, I want to be my best self in the classroom. I'm not sure that I want to develop myself just to be a value add to a team at the school. And I just don't think that's really where I want to put my energy in how to be better for my colleagues.

So I think that what we're talking about does have research. It is becoming part of state frameworks. It does speak to very specific increases in lots of different ways. But it isn't the get on board, it makes sense to everybody. And so I've got to work on that I've got to work on trying to explain it without being angry. Because do you want to be right or effective? We think it's wonderful. We know it's essential. It'll help us thrive as adults.

We'll be less subject to such pain and overwhelm, I think if we are better able to communicate, people can hear us, we're having less tense interactions. We have greater boundaries, we are welcoming other humans. And we're staying human. And we have some self-compassion. I think all of that's there. It's just not what everybody thinks. And I'm just, I'm working on that. I'm working on how to bring that up in a kinder way, but a pretty clear way. So anything, you've got let me know.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, well, I will say, and I'm glad you brought this up because I love being able to have this even just vulnerable conversation here as an example for everyone too, right? What I say to people, and I truly believe this is my favorite Greg Brady quote, wherever you go, there you are.

Jennifer Abrams
In the classroom, not in the class, right?

Jen Rafferty
You are not a different person. When you're in front of kids, and you are in that team meeting, when you are, when you're at home with your partner and your kids, when you're at the bar with your buddies, you're the same person. And when we compartmentalize our growth and development, we're cutting ourselves short from what's actually possible for our impacts. You want to have a greater impact on kids, then you get the opportunity to honor yourself by doing the personal work. It's the same. And I think that's that's one one thing that I share.

But another thing and I think we can talk about this, too, is identity. People, I think particularly teachers feel often consumed by their identity as teachers first. And when you ask somebody who are you? What do you do? When I was in the classroom, teacher was the first thing out of my mouth, which I think during COVID, particularly for me and I know many other educators, we went through this, not just professional identity crisis, but a personal identity crisis.

Because if I wasn't in front of my kids doing the work that I'm usually used to doing, then who am I? And I think in times like that people either took that as an opportunity to explore or because of the fear glommed on to the identity that they held so dear, and, and so now what? And so can you maybe talk about from your experience what you've observed with that identity? Because I think that has to do with what you're talking about.

Jennifer Abrams
Yeah, there was a guy Dan Lurie, L U R I E, and he did a sociological study on the school teacher. So there's a book out there from the 70s or the 80s, where it's really as an anthropologist or a sociologist, what are the ways that a teacher actually views him or herself? And how do we want other people to see us and how do we see ourselves? And the idea I think of teacher of record, the idea of that we can't look at an idea outside of it being so tied to us, that our kids are our kids, that we're not there for just it just it's a super interesting or you cheated on my test. You're failing my class.

I don't not think that we should be invested. I think we should be invested but when we then look at the data and the test scores aren't as high, then all of a sudden, we crumble because we failed, as opposed to being able to look at a set of data. And that's really where change happens and people resist it. I don't think that as professionals, we have developed enough of a distance and a mindset and a stomach to be able to look at information as outside of us.

So the schools scores your idea. It's always it's so enmeshed, and we want to be perfect, and we care. So it gets even worse to untangle it. But also that idea of I'm teacher of record, so I have to be certain. And I don't want to look like a wimp. So I'm gonna double down on on stuff. I've seen administrators do that. I've seen teachers do that. And it's to the detriment of students. We can't hold a bigger frame.

When people send me feedback about my workshops. How do I stay curious, but not from low? You know what I mean? How do I not identify because I identify deeply with the consulting work I do. But if we want to move things forward, we're going to need to have a balcony, we have to have a balcony point of view, we have to look down, look at the data, and not feel like we're riding the dance floor and in a mosh pit, you know what I mean? And so connected to it, I don't think we can move. We can't move the field if we don't have that skill.

Jen Rafferty
I agree with you. In CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, the term detached, detached involvement is what you're describing right now. It's not that you don't care, you care very deeply. But there is a detachment that's there, where your identity, that where your wholeness, where your value as a human being is unshakable, regardless of what's happening on the outside. And that is a skill that is not taught. Let's add that to the list. Where did we go? I think we're writing a new book here. Yeah.

Jennifer Abrams
That's what we need. I can tell you that immediately.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. Yeah, that is because you're 100% right. And we can't be effective if we're jumping into the story. We have to be detached.

Jennifer Abrams
I might actually use that in my next newsletter because I'm always thinking that I am a thought partner for somebody. And I'm there as a cheerleader, I'm there as somebody who can sit with you and look at an idea and bring you to the balconies so that with support so that you can be detached a little bit more, and you're not totally enmeshed. I have a colleague who once said to me, as I'm completely enmeshed, enough with the story, what's the lesson? And it was like, Oh, I have to like, I have to like be involved. But I have to take myself out so that I can learn from this as opposed to just being gossiping and whiny. And I think detached involvement would benefit our field a lot. So let's go do that. Let's go do that, my friend.

Jen Rafferty
Alright, right after this is over, we're getting to where I'll meet you in Hawaii. How's that? Oh, get out of the New York snow. So as we're closing out this conversation, because I could talk to you for forever here, but this is not gonna be the end of our chats, I'm sure. I would love to know something I asked all my guests, what is your dream for the future of education?

Jennifer Abrams
I think this idea of what does it take to thrive as educators is a big dream. And that is to bring people away from just being subjected to what we think schools need to be, and go up to the balcony a little bit more, and be able to see a bigger thing, and be able to do micro-macro, be able to build these adult to adult skills so that we can transform it to be even more of a human-centered experience. I want us to be interdependent, and be able to have those skills so that we can work as a community to support the kids. So it's a dream. Not... It's a dream. It's a dream, but I want to be a part of that dream. So how to thrive I think we need to get out of subject to a lot of stuff and be able to see things with a bigger lens.

Jen Rafferty
Yes. And you said human-centered learning. Isn't that nice? Because otherwise what are we doing? If we're not doing that?

Jennifer Abrams
A lot of people are not doing that. It wasn't about that. It's the three R's or it's just making sure that we get through the standard words or it's, we want people to be good not just citizens but productive in the economy. And I think I want people to think about us being on the globe. And what is success? Yeah. So I think the dream of school needs to be bigger and how we show up in it needs to be much bigger.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, yes. Yes to all of that. Yes. So, after this conversation, I know people are going to want to know more about you and your work. How do they get in touch with you?

Jennifer Abrams
So I have a website, JenniferAbrams.com. You can find me on Twitter at Jennifer Abrams. I'm not as good on Instagram, but it's at Jennifer Beth Abrams. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm everywhere. You can just look up Jennifer Abrams on Google and you'll see videos. I've got books. I try to be present out there. But yeah, and you just write me an email, jennifer@jenniferabrams.com like you did, Jen. So that's the way you do it. Fantastic.

Jen Rafferty
And all of those links will be there in the show notes. So it'll be super easy for people to get in touch with you. Thank you so much for your time, for your talents, for the work that you do in this world. I really appreciate you sharing today.

Jennifer Abrams
I appreciate you, too. Mahalo.

Jen Rafferty
Thank you, same to you. And if you liked today's episode, go ahead and write a five-star review, share with a friend, and subscribe so you never miss an episode. And I will see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going and Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

Feeling tired as a teacher? Overcome burnout and spark your passion again with Taylor Nardone

Feeling stuck in your career or searching for purpose in your life?

Join me and our guest, Taylor Nardone, a dynamic speaker, coach, and former teacher, in today’s episode where we discuss finding your truth and power during times of transition.

Diving deep into personal transformation and intuition, Taylor shares his journey of embracing a career change guided by spiritual awakening and self-discovery. Discover practical tips he has learned for overcoming burnout, as well as the importance of emotional intelligence for continued personal growth.

We also explore how you can align with your true self by breaking free of limiting beliefs, and the impact that adult behavior can have on the younger generation. Additionally, Taylor shares his vision for the future of education, advocating for a more personalized and engaging learning environment for students.

Ready to embark on your own journey of self-discovery and transformation?

Remember, it's never too late to redefine your path and rediscover your passion!

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Taylor:
Taylor Nardone is a speaker, coach and performer based in Boston, MA. Having gone through a transformational awakening in the Spring of 2022, he quit his teaching job and ventured into the unknown. What would follow was a journey of absolute magic and immense trust. He intuitively found his calling in guiding others in their return back home to themselves. With the phrase found in nearly all of his content, Taylor lives by the eternal knowing that all is well, always and in all ways.

Connect with Taylor:
https://linktr.ee/taylorryannardone

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities? And does the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are in this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, and welcome back to another fantastic episode of Take Notes. I am here with Taylor Nardone, who is a speaker, a coach and a performer based in Boston, Massachusetts. And having gone through a transformational awakening in the spring of 2022, he quit his teaching job and ventured into the unknown. And what would follow was a journey of absolute magic and immense trust. And he intuitively found his calling and guiding others and their return back home to themselves with a phrase found in nearly all of his content. Taylor lives by the eternal knowing that all is well, always and in all ways. Thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with me today.

Taylor Nardone
Yes, I'm so excited. Thank you for having me.

Jen Rafferty
I am so excited too, there are so many interesting parallels to both of our journeys. And I want to ask you, first and foremost, this awakening that you had in 2022, you know, your music teacher teaching elementary school music, and like many of us going through the pandemic really shifted things and highlighted maybe some of the stuff that was bubbling under the surface that we now couldn't ignore anymore. So what happened that spring that made the shift for you?

Taylor Nardone
Yeah, it was a crazy time in my life, for sure. So I actually was teaching music at the time. And I was studying to become a General Ed teacher as well, which people actually didn't know. So my last year of teaching, I was getting my masters. So I was working, obviously, five days a week teaching music. And then I was doing classes, I think, Tuesday and Thursday. And then on Saturday and Sunday, I was working at a restaurant to pay for the Masters. So I was working. And I think just being generally extremely burnt out was the catalyst for this transformation that was coming. So it was very big spiritual awakening. And it was something that kind of came through the lens of this very strong like intuitive call that was like you need to jump into the unknown. It wasn't like quit your job, because this is so difficult. It was more so like, "Nope, this is not for you anymore. You've done your part here. And it's time to step into a totally new chapter." So basically, for a couple of months towards the end of the school year, I thought I was going to be looking for and I was for a little bit new positions, because I was ready to teach like second or third grade. And again, I loved my time as a music teacher, but it was just the appropriate transition. And so I was looking for these positions. And as I was doing it, I was like, I don't even think I want to be in a classroom. And so that's kind of how it all happened. And it basically was a two month period where I really sat on it, I was looking for signs left and right. And they were showing up. And in July, I took that leap. And it was terrifying, but also really exciting. And now I'm able to look back on my time as a teacher and really appreciate it for what it was. I have no regrets. But I'm able to look back and say, You know what, that served its purpose. And I did what I intended to do so long winded answer, but yeah, it was quite the spring.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it is quite a transition to go from that. And having a moment in time where you ask yourself, what do I want? Is this actually what I want? And I think what happens to most of us is that there is this moment of burnout or something catastrophic happens, or there's this big crisis. And that's the time when we start answering these questions, because we're forced to ask them, but we don't have to wait for something like that, to start asking these questions. And I know that in the work that you do now you help guide people to understand their innate ability to ask these questions. So can you talk a little bit about now? So we made the transition? And we'll definitely circle back. But what is it that you're doing now to support people and understanding themselves?

Taylor Nardone
Absolutely. Well, you know, you're right. I think for a couple of years before we even had that big moment, it was bubbling up and we always avoid it, we think, Oh, well, that didn't go with logic, okay, well, I want to take a big leap, I want to do something different. That's not what society tells me to do. And so it's really it's stepping into your own truth and power and understanding that you actually have autonomy over your life. So that's predominantly what I do with people now is I do end up working with a lot of people that are kind of in that place of transitioning their career, that's kind of the catalyst for their beautiful transformation. And so I really work to get them back listening to their intuition, which really that gut feeling that you have is not wrong. And it typically if it goes away for a time it will come back and letting people's minds expand beyond the realm of perhaps what they've experienced in their life so far to the land of possibility. And then we kind of tangibly work to find evidence to support the fact that the direction you want to go is actually possible. Other people have done it and so it's this big, just very introspective process that really leads to you just opening up to the highest expression of who you are, and then living a life in accordance with that. So that's my biggest thing. I'm for everyone doing what they want to do. I think when I have left my job, I think I was on teacher like, quit talk for a little bit better, you know what I mean, people were like, Oh, he left his job. And I'm like, it's really not even about that. I'm just for you having autonomy, I don't want anyone to feel stuck, because you don't have to be stuck. So I think that's predominantly what I'm doing at this point. And it's been awesome to have met so many incredible souls. And you'd be interested to hear that people that are in the workforce, and also out of the workforce, I've worked with folks that are retired, that are going "What is the purpose, oh, my gosh, I've worked all these years. And now I'm here. And I don't know what to do." And it's a pretty beautiful process.

Jen Rafferty
It really is. And the word that I use in my work along the lines of what you're saying is it's about alignment. And that's the thing, I think people generally ignore their intuition, because like you said, it doesn't necessarily go with the logic and the experience that you're seeing with your three dimensional senses. And intuition takes a little bit more of a leap of self trust. And growing up, we get messages both implicitly and explicitly that we can't trust ourselves. So can you talk a little bit about that, and how we lead people? Or how people can then lead themselves sometimes with the help of somebody else to return to themselves to trust?

Taylor Nardone
Yeah, well, first of all, I think the most important part is we don't want to keep the hammer on our back about oh, I'm supposed to be doing this, or I'm supposed to be doing that. I think when we look at this, we want to look at how important it is to just really understand at least that it's understandable why we believe the things we do based upon how we grew out and what we've experienced. So let's humanize ourselves for a moment to understand that it makes sense. When I work with people when they have a really like I came to this or I can do that. And we dive in a little bit to maybe how they grew up. Even when we talk about money and getting into a money mindset. You know, how was when he talked about when you grew up? Whether you had it or not? How was it talked about what was the process, and so when you're younger, you're just taking all of that in that it becomes your reality. But I think when it comes to your intuition, mine's always been pretty loud. But I always tell people, your intuition is in your heart space. And it's a beautiful, like just motherly, warm, expansive feeling, that always has a little bit of fear on it, because your ego jumps in, and your ego goes "not safe." So we're gonna give you all the reasons why that's not safe. So what I really do in my work is I help people sort out the difference between their ego and their intuition, because your ego is a very chaotic voice in your head, and it never stops. It's that unhealed version of us that screams there's a monster under the bed. And I tell people, I'm like you had a child come up to you and say that, how would you respond? So you almost want to treat that part of you in the same way. You want to demonize them a God like, Oh, what do you do? You know, it's like, well, let's go check. Or you know what, wait a second, we've worked on this a few times. So once you start to really understand Wait a second, is that my ego jumping and trying to keep me constantly in a state of survival when I'm actually not in danger? And if it is, then we take a moment and say, Well, I don't think that belief is actually going to serve me in this moment. Okay, so what's a better feeling felt what's a better belief that actually will serve me in that direction. And I tell people as well about your intuition, it feels like a full body. Yes, it's expansive. And then that fear naturally comes in. But it's just an unlived experience. So of course, you're going to be a little scared, being scared about something doesn't mean that you're not supposed to do it, in some cases, right? Like the traffic score, but maybe it's not best across the street. So your ego has its time in place. But when it comes down to new experience, at the end of the day, it's excitement without the breath, you breathe into it, and you feel what's on the other side of that fear, what expansion lies there? And then when the ego comes in and goes, Okay, well, logically, I'm gonna have to plan all this out, we really don't. Because when has anything ever gone according to plan? Probably never. Right? So there's an element of trust, and that you will figure things out as you go. So that's kind of the whole process of working with it. But it takes time. I think part of the process is also becoming aware that your thoughts are really not your reality, we've just let them become our reality. So getting yourself back to you know, as you were saying, your three dimensional life for a second puts you back into the blank canvas, where there's nothing and everything all at the same time. And then you pick and choose the direction you want to go. But our thoughts can really spiral. You know, we can really go to I call it like the Hades, Whirlpool. It just keeps on going. So hopefully that makes sense.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it does. And you're completely speaking my language, which I so appreciate. I love the image that you said, excitement without the breath, especially as a singer, to me that really resonated if you are going to attempt to sing this beautiful phrase, and you don't have the breath to support it's not happening.

Taylor Nardone
And you know what, that's what we do with our body too. When we get scared or everything contracts. And as a singer, the most vulnerable thing that we can do open up saying, when we're scared, that's exactly what happens. But the magic lies beyond when you take that deep breath and you can actually let yourself really just unleash so everything's all connected. It's pretty cool.

Jen Rafferty
Isn't it? it I know it totally is. And what you were saying to brings me back to that moment where I've shared to my listeners before, and I talked with you before we started recording is, when I decided to take that leap, I signed my resignation letter and was so excited about it, I was smiling as they put it in the mailbox. And then four days later, I have a hot, soggy mess on my couch, like snot bubbles, the whole thing, because it was an unlived experience. I had been going to school every day in September since I was four years old. And now here I was making a new choice. And that scared the shit out of me. And leading into that was a much different experience than beating myself up about the fear. So can you talk about leaning in, leaning into fear, leaning into how we experienced that when your mind wants to feed you all of those negative thoughts about what could be happening? What might happen? What you should do or what you're supposed to do? How do you lean in and acknowledge that's part of your beautiful biology, so you can move through?

Taylor Nardone
Absolutely, well, you know, what they always say you have to feel to heal. So you have to go through the forest, unfortunately, but it's all a gift, it really is, because then you're aware of what those limiting beliefs are. And I always tell people, chances are in that new chapter, you can't take that belief system with you. So at least it came up now, at least it's coming up at the starting line and not 20 miles in when you feel like you're almost there. So again, it comes down to the awareness of it and understanding that your nervous system doesn't know what to do. It's all messed up because of this whole new experience. So it's honoring the fact that there's a piece of you that is incredibly scared right now that's okay, we wouldn't shut them in the closet, right? We would take them with us, that younger version of us, bring them in the room, take them with you, they need you. So they get to be the audience now, and we get to say to them, you don't have to drive the car anymore. It's okay, I've got you. And there's another version of us ahead, that's already done it, we're gonna let them lead. So with fear, I honor it, I acknowledge it. And I allow myself to feel it. You know, I think so often where we get into trouble is that we just reject these feelings that we have. And we tuck it back down, we do something about whatever it is we distract ourselves. And of course, it's going to come back later. So I think the best thing to do is to feel it while having the knowing that you know what I understand everything is working for my highest good. All is going to continue to be well, I'm going to continue to line up as I feel this and let these feelings come on out. But I think the important part is to not take just as you wouldn't take a child telling you there's a monster under the bed, take that as the truth, to look at the fear with a heavy grain of salt and a boulder of salt, so to speak. Because chances are it's just doing everything to keep you there. So you affirming to yourself, it's safe to be where I am. Am I in my body? Yes, okay, I can be in my body, I can be where I am, I don't have to know this whole next chapter, A-Z, I just get to take the step from A to B. And then C will appear and then D will appear. So it's really reminding yourself that you can only ever take one step at a time, you can only ever be where you are. Right, you're not going to experience what happens in the future in the future, you experience it always in the present moment. So you really anchor yourself to the present moment. And some of that fear oftentimes is able to dissipate. But when you go through the process of looking at what's that narration that keeps coming in, because that might be the same story, what might be the same story, write it down, and then start to take stock and go. So what are the pros and cons of holding on to that belief, because there's pros, I won't have to risk the possibility of failure, I won't have to risk the possibility of this business not work, whatever it is, right? But what are the cons. And really, that list is always longer, and it always comes down to you're going to stay stuck. And everyone always says you'd rather have tried than to not at all right? At least just go for it. And so then what you do is you start to, looking at that very objectively now. If you're going to study for a test, you're not going to study the wrong answer. So now you need to find some people that have done what you're aspiring to do and go example example, example, example example. I'm good, I'm gonna walk. And the next time it comes in, you kind of rinse and repeat that process. You don't have to look at what someone else is doing and go I have to recreate everything. No, you just take one step. But at least in that moment, doing that little process and I work on this with clients, you're able to just move forward because when you're in alignment, as you know, your path is clear. It's clear, you just walk. But when we get out of alignment, and we really respond and take so much truth to that fear or whatever belief that is that's coming in, all of a sudden, we get farther and farther away from our path and it's hard to get back. But when you are in alignment, you simply walk you step into the knowing that all as well you walk and you respond to the inspiration you get. Take stock of what thoughts are coming in, does it serve me? Does it not serve me? I'm still here, I still have a brain awesome. I can function I keep walking. So when you kind of get into that process, it starts to really work itself out which is beautiful.

Jen Rafferty
It really is beautiful. And I've had the pleasure of witnessing so many people make that transformation too, as I'm doing this myself because as you know, it's not like you wake up one day and you're like "I got it" as long as we're here on this earth. It is This beautiful journey that we get to practice what we share with our clients. One thing that you said too, that I also resonated with, you talked about everything is happening for your highest good. And that is something that I truly believe. And that is one of the things that for me with the teachers and educators that I work with. That's something you just have to get on board with, you just have to get on board with that one. And the alignment of your other beliefs are going to be so much easier if you actually can embody and believe in yourself that everything truly is happening to your highest good, or for your highest good. How do you go about sharing that message with people? So it sinks in?

Taylor Nardone
Yes. Well, everyone's pretty different because everyone's had a different life experience. And first off, I honor that, I think when we go into doing this work, not from the place of thinking that we somehow know everything, it's more so really looking at everyone's experience. And number one validating it like it's understandable why we feel a certain way, why we have this absolutely. And so I think when I get into this work, that's usually something that I throw in there towards the end of sessions, you know what I mean, when we've kind of we've gone in there a little bit, because I think it's difficult when you're experiencing something really intense to be like, Oh, it's all happening for the best reasons, you know what I mean? And so really what it comes down to is, you don't need in that moment, or not needing to make sense of it. In fact, the more you try and make sense of it, all of it, the more confused you get. Because the answer, so to speak, does not lie within a place of logic in here. How can you look at the world and ever valid anything? It just doesn't make any sense? And yet, somehow, my soul and my intuition has a sense of exhilaration when I almost confused about all they're like, because the answer doesn't lie there. Trust me, there's an intelligence beyond you keep going with your message all is well. And I have chills saying that because I know it to be true. And then you look for the moments where it does line up. Oh, I didn't get this. But oh, my God. I mean, I just had a call before this, that I'm like, I looked up and I was like you really did it. Wow. Wow. Like it is just working. It's working. And so I think in a tangible way. One of the things I teach people is okay, so I love the phrase open to anything attached to nothing. So for example, when something comes to you, and it doesn't really go according to your very understandable plan, because we all play on things, right? No matter how much fun we have, like we just are worrying naturally wants to play, it's okay. So let's say that something doesn't really line up as it would you would have expected whatever it is, in that moment, it's not our job to write a dissertation about a cable, this is why this isn't that- nope, you just let it be. If it's not this, it's something better. And we keep walking, everything is working for my highest good. So frankly, if it doesn't line up with what I know to be true that that my success is inevitable, that my needs are met on this journey, then it's just not this, there's going to be something better that comes down, I'm excited to see what opportunity that is. And so then what you do is you're not getting stuck to that outcome. And you're able to very clearly just continue to walk and get excited about and look for the new opportunities, because oftentimes, it's right there. And we miss it. Because we get so focused that tunnel vision, and this happens when something great is happening, you get very focused on that. Receive the gifts, all the blessings, all of it, it's all there. Sometimes it's just getting out of that tunnel and opening up and going, oh my goodness, there's glimmers everywhere. So that's usually how I'm able to kind of guide people through that a little bit.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, and you'll and it's important to remember too, that you're right, this is not something that when you're really in it, highest good is not going to be the thing that's going to automatically pull you out of it because highest good doesn't always feel good. And that's important here too. You know, sitting on that couch sobbing my eyes out, did not feel good at all. But zooming out with the wisdom now that I have almost four years later, that definitely was highest good. And so leaning in there to feel the feelings is important as well. And you said all of this so beautifully. So with the work that I have done and learned and the research that I've done building program, through empowered educator focuses on this work for teachers, because my question to you is, if you knew what you know now, when you were teaching, what might have been different for you?

Taylor Nardone
Oh my goodness, my entire teaching career was being attached to every outcome. I think I spent so much time look back at 20 to 23 year old me who didn't know myself I would get to school two hours before and see two hours late just because I'm like well this is why I am now so I think part of this is I would have to trusted that things were going to line up, I would have trusted that you know what? It was a difficulty with a class it was, whatever it was, there's a better day coming. Right? This doesn't have an impact necessarily on who I am as a person. I think sometimes when we're teaching, we just have this really intense feeling that when something doesn't go well, like you're responsible for so many beautiful souls in front of you, right, so there's so many students in the class that we just take it on, we take it on somewhat, we're like, oh, my gosh, we're not enough. We're not enough. We're not enough. And I think the core of this journey has been realizing that not only am I enough, but I never had to prove that. And so not having to prove it has been the most liberating experience. And by the way, I've had a lot of success not needing to prove anything. So I would go right back to day one, and say, "You do not need to prove anything to anybody. Your job is to walk in here, you're gonna deliver a beautiful lesson, and you're going to learn as you go, you don't have to be perfect on day one, because perfect doesn't exist. And that's something that we've totally constructed in our mind to think that we're working towards, you just get better and better as you go. And you get to enjoy the process of becoming a stronger educator, you get to enjoy the process of getting better at your job." And I think in doing that, it allows you to be a lot more present where you are, and you're not putting as much pressure on yourself. Because the pressure, I mean, my goodness, like 22, 23, 24, the pressure I put on myself, to be just flawless was insane. And it didn't make any we talked about last year too much. But it didn't make any sense. It's like I'm so young, how can I ever expect to be perfect. So I think part of it is just savoring where you are and enjoying the process of watching yourself unfold to become a stronger educator, and then down the road, maybe have some different interests and say, Well, wait a second, I'm noticing myself desire a different career path. That's okay.

Jen Rafferty
The thing that I've really observed in my work doing what I do now is that, you know, if we want our students to know their self worth, we need to know ours.

Taylor Nardone
And make us feel it, we all feel each other's energy. If I'm walking in there, like it's not just that I want to have a level of fake confidence. That's not bad at all, but a level of peace within myself to say it's okay to make a mistake. It's okay for me to make a mistake, you know, when if I'm running around putting on the dog and pony show, but it's all got to be perfect. I mean, I think that rubs off on my students and doesn't really give the right message. And especially as someone who taught music, I don't ever want a student to think that they have to be perfect, and that if their voice cracks, it's Oh, my God, imperfection is the beauty of this whole experience. And so I think that I would go back and probably put that exact same just everywhere.

Jen Rafferty
Sure, well, and you're right, it doesn't matter what we say to the kids, because of course, we would tell kids, it's okay to make mistakes, and to try and do the best that you can. And then the watch the adults in their lives, doing the exact opposite, struggling with perfectionism and beating themselves up over these little teeny mistakes, and being so unsure of their self worth being attached to the outcomes, that those are actually the messages that they're getting. And if we're really trying to make change, and this is why, you know, I work with teachers, because I think that if we are able to teach and guide educators to know their worth, to be fluent in the language that you're speaking that I'm speaking and make change for themselves. Everything changes. That's how we make change in this world. It's so exciting, isn't it?

Taylor Nardone
It is we just have to go back to our light within and then all of a sudden things around you shift and change. I mean, I tell everyone, I'm like don't discount the moments where you're walking by someone in CVS, or in the grocery stores. Like don't discount those moments smile at someone you make their day mean that it's the small things that compound over time in our lives that really make a big difference. And it's just how we shift everything. So I completely agree. And I think that kids, just like you said, they know intuitively, they're like, this is supposed to be more fun. Why are you so strict? You know what I mean? And I think as we get older, we're like no responsibility. It's think there's something to be said about the joy of living for the sake of living going outside on a summer day and just going to be in the grass. I mean, we can learn something from kids, I probably would go back too and be like, what are you learning from them, Taylor? Instead of you always need to be the leader. You know what? No, because we're all one. I mean, I guarantee you that taught me things that I probably will do right pass because I was so concerned about the marking period, or whatever it was. So I think the key to all of it, too, is just presence. Just being so you're able to receive all the gems.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, well, everything is just so damn serious all the time. And the truth is nobody gets out of here alive. So what are we doing?

Taylor Nardone
And by the way, the world keeps spinning if we laugh, I enjoy what I do. I'm still making money. Somehow it's working. It's you don't have to suffer. Yes,

Jen Rafferty
Can we stay there for a second. I think that there's this really interesting I was just talking with someone else about this who I'm so glad you just brought this up, that there's like this divide, right because especially in education, there's this fight for respect for money, for resources for smaller class sizes, you name it, the list is very long. I know you know what that list is? Oh, yeah. And it seems like there's this almost strange connection with if we're fighting that it has to feel like struggle. Absolutely. If I'm enjoying myself and being present, that I must not be fighting the fight. And I think that's a completely false and unproductive way of looking at this, because if we are feeling whole and aligned, we're actually going to be able to be more articulate and productive in our efforts to make change. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Taylor Nardone
Oh, my gosh, you're speaking my truth right now? Yes, no, I'm all about that. I think the journey starts, it has to start within. And it just goes back to that very old saying that we say, you can't pour from an empty cup. It's true when your cup is to play, you can't do anything, you can't do anything. So when we sink down to that place of being better and very angry, and this and that it really is not something that becomes productive. And I think, what do we all really want to feel? And what are we all void of connection? How do we feel connection? Well, first of all, we need to be open to receiving it, we need to be open to giving it and that means if you're feeling that sense of joy within think about how you can make a difference with people. So going back to my grocery store example, when you walk into the store, you're mad, there was a traffic, this is and that, all day, whatever it is, you walk by everyone, you're grunting this and that, why don't think we just didn't even really good. And maybe I just came from fighting for something, whatever it is, but now I'm walking throughout my life in this space of feeling just miserable. You know what I mean? And so I think that there's something to be said, there's a time and place when we have the honor and the privilege of speaking up and working towards something. And at the same time teaching people and being a model of like, you get to enjoy this beautiful experience. And in the in between, oh my gosh, there's so much life to be lived. And that's how that flower beautifully gets to bloom. So I'm all about that. And I teach my clients that often. And it's a joy watching people start to embody that and live that way. And then things really shift in their life. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, imagine if the world started to shift in that direction oh, it would be amazing.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, because we're gonna circle back to what you said before. Our kids are watching the adults in their lives is an example of how to live. And so if we, as the adults are operating under our limited beliefs under our disempowering emotions, and that's driving us, that is what our kids are going to experience, which then enables them to grow up and be exactly where we are right now. I'm just not available for that anymore. It is not working. And that urgency that I feel like lights a fire under my butt every single day, Taylor and gets me out of bed, and let's go because we deserve more, and our kids deserve more than that.

Taylor Nardone
Absolutely, absolutely. I think we're hitting that breaking point in society where people are starting to shift in that beautiful direction, because it's so needed. And I think as we get older people become a little bit jaded about things. I, it's because in your soul, you know that it shouldn't be like that you know it to be true, there is a sense of joy and wonder that we deserve to have while living here, the more that we can try and figure out well, what does all this mean? Again, like we talked about before, the more confused you get that only leads back down to one thing, I guess we just get to live, and we have to live. So something tells me turning our wheels on all of a sudden that something's changed. Something's don't something's got what? So at the end of the day, what do we have control over? Perhaps it's a little bit of releasing the control. And that's really alignment. It's releasing some of that control and saying, You know what, the only thing I can ever do is just be here. And personally, I would like to enjoy it.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, same. Same. As I remember, a couple years ago, I would get up in the middle of the night, and I couldn't go back to sleep. And I was thinking futuring and in worrying and relatively recently, my phrase that if this happens again during the night and works like a charm is just be where your feet are. And I go back to sleep.

Taylor Nardone
Absolutely. And oh my gosh, and the world kept moving. Nothing blew up. Okay. Oh my gosh, the house didn't collapse like things are okay. It's very liberating and humbling sometimes to just be like, you know, what, wait a second, my in my body. Where are my feet? Okay, we're good.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, we're good, we're good. And then we get a good night's sleep. And we can do it all again in the morning. So everybody wins. I need to ask you now the same question that I asked to all of my guests, which is, what's your dream for the future of education?

Taylor Nardone
Honestly, in a tangible way, I think that there should be, and I come from elementary two teachers in a classroom. I want to see two teachers on a classroom with no more than 20 students. I do not think that it is possible for students or teachers to do this the right way. When there's one teacher in charge of that many tiny souls that are learning what it means to be alive. I also would love to see a shift in the expectation of how students are expected to behave and exist in school environment, I understand that they're learning and we're out. Yes, there is a way that we want to act all of this. But I think that we're starting to understand our souls are everyone's so different like that would love to see a more tailored and unique version of what it means to be in school, a different level of freedom for some of the students. And I know not everyone drives with that. But I really think that we're heading to a world that's a little bit different. And if it means that you have smaller class sizes, and more support in there, and the students have a little bit more autonomy to explore, and to be more structured play time that's in there for them. I love that because I want them to keep that sense of wonder for the world. And have it be fostered. So I would love to see that shift. And then the academic portion would come after us well.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, I love it. And I say this also, after everyone shares their dreams, I do really believe that the more that we say our dreams out loud, we're closer to them actualizing. And I hope that people who are listening, begin to dream themselves. And it's important to connect with what you want, what you desire, what you wish, because that is how we make really important and impactful change in this world. So thank you for sharing that.

Taylor Nardone
Absolutely. My pleasure.

Jen Rafferty
If people want to learn more about you get to know you learn how to work with you. Where can we send them?

Taylor Nardone
Yeah, so any of my social media platforms, so I'm predominantly on Tiktok and Instagram. So my handle is just my full name is Taylor Ryan Nardone and I always have a link right in my bio, if you ever want to book a session with me, I definitely have a couple of different offers in there. And I'm working on getting my YouTube channel up and running. So that's next up, but definitely Tiktok and Instagram.

Jen Rafferty
So fun. And that's how I Found You was on Instagram, and I loved all of your content. And it really led me to see how much we're speaking the same language with intuitive course, inspired me to reach out and I'm so glad that we had this conversation. It was so good to talk with you

Taylor Nardone
Yes you know this was incredible. Thank you so much for having me.

Jen Rafferty
Thank you, and thank you for the work that you do in this world. It's fantastic.

Taylor Nardone
Thank you so much. And you as well.

Jen Rafferty
Thank you. Thank you. I received that.

Taylor Nardone
Yes.

Jen Rafferty
So if you love today's episode, be sure to write a five star review, share with a friend and we will see you next time on Take Notes. Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

Transforming Education: Authentic Leadership and Systemic Change with Sarah Johnson

Have you ever wondered what it truly takes to be a great leader, especially in the challenging world of education?

Join us in today’s episode as we explore simple, yet powerful insights into authentic leadership with our guest, Sarah Johnson, an English teacher and school principal turned renowned author, speaker, leadership coach, and podcaster.

You’ll discover how to overcome imposter syndrome, trust your intuition, and understand why staying true to yourself is crucial in education leadership, as well as foundational leadership practices.

We also discussed the challenges educators face today, including how to fit into organizational norms and the importance of personal growth, not just for yourself but for the benefit of your students.

Plus, Sarah offers her unique perspective on how individual changes can create systemic transformation in education. This episode is more than just a guide to coping in the educational sphere; it's a roadmap to thriving in it, underlined by Sarah's expert insights and practical advice.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Sarah Johnson
Sarah Johnson is a former English teacher and school principal, turned author, speaker, leadership coach, and podcaster. She is passionate about assisting others in seeking greater satisfaction in all areas of their full lives by helping them go beyond work-life balance as well as develop strong leadership foundations. Sarah holds a Bachelor of Arts in Secondary Education, Master of Science in Educational Administration, a Certificate for Women in Leadership from Cornell University, and she is working on her PhD in Global Leadership and Change. She hosts the weekly In AWE Podcast where she is proud to amplify women’s stories to empower a community. Sarah is co-author of Balance Like a Pirate: Going Beyond Work-Life Balance to Ignite Passion and Thrive as an Educator and author of Lead with Faith: Building a Strong Foundation So You Can Rise Up, Slay Fear, and Serve Well.

Sarah lives the balance message in her life by pursuing passions such as running, writing, focusing on family with her two daughters and teacher husband, while also honing her leadership skills through networking, teaching, and learning.

Website: sarahsajohnson.com
Facebook: Sarah Johnson Consulting
Instagram: @sarahsajohnson
LinkedIn: Sarah Johnson

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:00
What does it take to be a good leader? Well, there's certainly a lot of research and some pseudoscience out there. But there seems to be one thing for sure. And it just so happens to be a recurring theme on the show recently. It's authenticity. It's being yourself and learning to lean in and trust your intuition. And sometimes that even requires taking a leap of faith and knowing that imposter syndrome isn't real, and you are exactly where you belong. I had an awesome time speaking with my guest today, Sarah Johnson, who is a former English teacher and school principal turned author, speaker, leadership coach and podcaster. She's passionate about assisting others in seeking greater satisfaction in all areas of their full lives by helping them go beyond the work life balance, as well as develop strong leadership foundations. Sarah has a Bachelor of Arts in secondary education, a Master of Science and Educational Administration, a certificate for women and leadership from Cornell University and she is currently working on her PhD in global leadership and change. This conversation was really a lot of fun, and I hope you have just as much fun listening in and empowered educator workshops are filling up for this January. So you're gonna want to grab your seat at empowered educator.com/workshops and discover how your impact changes when you focus on your own social and emotional well being. Because the well being of a school is dependent on the well being of its educators, and it's time to shift the attention to you. Empowered educator is changing the landscape of professional development, and its impact is making generational change. The empowered educator winter series starts on January 17, and registration is now open. So claim your spot at empowered educator.com/workshops. You are a gift to this world so act accordingly.

Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of The Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of empowered educator, and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to The Take notes podcast. I am so glad you're here and I am so excited to introduce our next guest. Today I am talking with Sarah Johnson. And Sarah, I am so glad that we get to continue our conversations together. Thank you so much for being here!

Sarah Johnson 02:58
Jen it is absolutely my pleasure. I would talk to you every day if I could.

Jen Rafferty 03:02
Yes, I know we're new best friends. Absolutely, I love it. So let's just get right into it. Because we have such a short amount of time here. And I really want to get all the juiciness we possibly can out of today. So your focus recently has been on leadership. So let's talk a little bit about what are some of the foundational practices of what makes a good leader. What have you found in your work and your observations and in your research?

Sarah Johnson 03:30
So first of all, the funny part about this is I slipped in an existential crisis in the last month as I take, I don't know, like my 50th formal class on leadership, I swear. And I came across a text that I hadn't read, that really just blew my mind open and help me understand why when I come across different people in my life that are leaders, why they're so vastly different, and how the world tends to value styles of leadership, but they don't really spend time kind of peeling apart what leadership even means. And it sounds so silly but I have spent time now in the last six weeks or so reading about leadership, from the lens of behavior, from the lens of skills, from the lens of traits, situational leadership, and how all of these like there's 15 different ways of looking at leadership, how they all have conceptual framework and literature and research behind them. That has just made me suddenly come to another point of clarity after all of that. I think you know what that's like studying where you get down a rabbit hole and you're like, oh my gosh, I turns out I don't know anything. And then it turns out that you're like, okay, actually no, step back I know plenty. And I guess I wanted to say that because I have spent a life in leadership ever since teenage years or younger, probably when you can come up with those examples. And I've often thought how in the world as the youngest of seven did I end up as a leader because as the youngest and birth order that research will tell you that I'm supposed to be in prison, and my siblings are supposed to be bailing me out?

Jen Rafferty 05:11
We're glad that was not the case for you

Sarah Johnson 05:13
No, but anyway, I've circled around just to say that for me, what I've learned, and I still go back to this is a centering space for me, that there are foundations of leadership. And my philosophy is still anchored pretty heavy in a framework that I created in 2019, would you be willing to let me talk it through a second?

Jen Rafferty 05:31
Oh, I would love it. If you did that.

Sarah Johnson 05:32
Yes. All right. So most of us that listen to this podcast are educators. And we love our acronyms. And for me, I was given this beautiful direction to write on the framework that has the faith acronym. So I just want to share that with your listeners really quickly, because this really truly is an acronym that helps kind of anchor us in our leadership foundations. So the "F" is free to be you. It's really about understanding yourself, your traits, the characteristics that make you unique as a leader, and it could be that you are an introverted leader and extroverted leader the world values one or the other. But we know that both of them can do a fantastic job leading, it's about your personality traits, the anchor of who you are, are you a person who is very detail oriented, or are you a visionary, all of these things that make you uniquely you, that also then allows you to understand other people and to be able to be firm in that "F" of who you are, without needing other people to tell you who that is right? "A" is affirmed and purpose it's about being very anchored in a mission and a vision that is informed by a very clear set of core values. It allows you to not only repurpose yourself every day through chaos, but also helps you to put a filter through your decision making and be clear about what you're about no matter what organization or context you're leading. And that's the "A" in faith, the I is intentionality. This goes back to some of my message with the balanced framework of living a whole full life that you're not just focused, like you're not just your role, right? But also that it is strategic, that you are learning how to prioritize in our schools we're always talking about in need to be focused on continuous improvement. But it's making sure that you know what you are about as well as what your organization is about, so that there's clarity around that. And that you're not trying to chase every little new, brand new, shiny tool, so you can stay focused and intentional in your work and help people to realize their best work. The "T", this one's exciting and fraught, is transformation. It's embracing transformation, it is allowing yourself as a leader to evolve to grow, but then also stimulating that transformation in your organization. And that is about oh my goodness, this applied strategic planning behind all of that learning about adaptive change, and helping people to come to that common goal that you all want in your organization. And then finally, "H", I took some liberty with this. It's really cool hearted living and leadership. So it's understanding you, as a leader needs to have a strong handle on your emotional intelligence, you need to be able to have self awareness, practice self regulation, you need to be able to read a room and practice relationship management, also develop your empathy. And so this whole framework for me, it just encompasses all of that good stuff. And I think that that's going to be different for everybody. You're going to present differently as the free to be you how you move wholeheartedly is going to be different than than how I do. But that framework, it doesn't have to be linear. It just to me, that's the foundation of being able to lead yourself so that you can lead others.

Jen Rafferty 08:53
Yeah, oh, I love all of that. And completely speaking my language with all of those definitions, explaining that acronym, it's a really holistic way of thinking about leadership, because it does encompass all of those things you had mentioned before regarding a leadership style, or what are the behaviors or the skills or the traits are what you're doing in situationally, this idea really encompasses all of them and you need this fundamentally, in order to direct some of your choices regarding your behaviors, and how you want to communicate and what skills you want to pursue. So I really think this is wonderful and I would love to talk for a second about that first one, the free to be you because I really think that in my experience, my observation and I'm wondering if this has been your observation, if you aren't free to be you. The other four things that you mentioned are going to be more difficult.

Sarah Johnson 09:34
Well, yes. And I also want to put a caveat here too, that if you weren't free to be you. First of all, many of us don't actually have that privilege in the organization that we might be living in. And I spend a lot of time thinking about this and trying to figure out what the solution is. Because not every organization wants you to be exactly who you are. And that could be people in the organization, it could be the mission of the organization. And so I just feel like for leaders, it's really critical to understand who you are, so you can know if who that person is aligned with where you're leading, because context really matters. And we don't have to suffer, right? How many of us feel like we have to suffer? And that we diminish our capacity and our own self efficacy, because we're just leaving in the wrong context. I just wanted to mention that because, of course, there's so much nuance here with gender with all sorts of intersectionality of who we are, in addition to our personalities, right. But yeah, I think that it starts there, we have to understand what we're about who we are, value, our strength and understand where we can complement our leadership with the people we surround ourselves with.

Jen Rafferty 10:59
Yes, and I'm really glad you said that. Because once people start to understand who they are, that's a lot of the work that I do with empowered educator we start with who are you as your fully expressed most authentic self, because that's where we all shine, right? You start to realize there are some things that may not be aligned with who I am. And I've been pressing myself to fit into this mold of how people think I should be, which leads to a lot of things. But one of the things you mentioned a struggle, which we don't have to. But another thing is this idea of imposter syndrome, and trying to fit into a box where it isn't necessarily aligned to who you are. And I'm sure you come across this a lot. How does impostor syndrome play a role in this idea of free to be you?

Sarah Johnson 11:48
Everywhere, we talk about this imposter syndrome a lot with when you talk about gender studies, but the truth is, we learn this that everybody suffers from impostor syndrome, at some point and on some level. But absolutely, I'm going to take it from the context of where I lead most recently in an organization as a female secondary leader being the only female 25% in our country have high school principals. Same with the suit thing, superintendents. So it is really hard sometimes to get past that impostor syndrome simply because you continuously question whether you belong at that table simply by your mere presence being not represented, right? And so a lot of times, understanding who you are, and what you're about can really be challenging because we don't spend the time we spend the time too much trying to fit into the mold, just taking it from the gender studies element, that secondary principal role is still very masculinized. It it absolutely is and stereotyped, right? Because we know that men certainly don't want to drag themselves through the mud working 24 hours a day, either they want to have full lives, but this role has not shifted much. And so we find ourselves really questioning, okay, if we are a wholehearted person who wants to have a full life and have all of the family elements, while also being a passionate person who has their own interests. In addition to that role, we constantly are questioning ourselves, should we really be doing that? Should you really be at home instead of at this athletic event? Or should you really be up there on stage laughing in front of students, right? Like, certain things that speak to who I am personally, as a leader, I was constantly that impostor was like, oh, secondary principals don't act like that or should you really be stating your opinion right now and et cetera, right? So that impostor syndrome is real. I think, though, that the more you spend time, empowering, as in your work is so important, empowering yourself to lead that way. And to be authentic, you start to realize that you were there for a reason you're meant there. And you just have to consistently affirm that for yourself and not look to the people outside of you to give you that affirmation.

Jen Rafferty 14:02
Yeah. Oh 100%! Isn't that, I get goosebumps talking about that stuff. Because once you let go of the need for external affirmation and validation of your worth, that's when this journey begins. Because then you can move into walking in your purpose with that affirmation from you and your clarity of your intention, as you say, and moving through transformation with more ease because you don't need somebody else to affirm that shift in that change as you're moving through the discomfort and then that wholehearted living piece, that is your fullest expression of you. So, that's huge and I would love to know a little bit of how you work with educators and leaders to get there. What is your process?

Sarah Johnson 14:53
First of all, and I know that you know this, it is a deep, involved process when you're trying and to help somebody stimulate their own healing and their own growth. And a huge part of that for me. So when I work with clients, and when I've done my firm foundations coaching, we start first with the Enneagram. And a huge part of that is just helping people to start to understand their motivations, their core desires, pieces of their childhood that might have been formed, why they behave the way they do now. But now the other thing is, I'm not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but you end up helping people just dive in to who they are, and that takes time and it takes a lot of effort. And I know that you know this, we don't sit in that a lot. I think, especially as educators, we're in a servant profession. So we end up spending so much time serving others and stimulating their growth that many of us I found, I don't know, if you found this stuff stopped our own personal development journeys to start into roles to get on that hamster wheel. And we think we know ourselves and in reality, we just simply don't we have become to this space in our lives where there is like a turning point, a pain point, we call it where we're forced into that so many of us just get into the numbing behaviors. And so anyway, it's just helping people to get to that space first, start here first start. What motivates me, who am I at the core? Who do I? What's the best version of me that I want to realize? And then we go from there, right?

Jen Rafferty 16:31
Yeah, there's so many different places, I can take this. But for now, I want to just comment on a couple things you just said, because you're so right. In all of this, we generally leapfrog over the needs of the adults in these spaces because of the idea that we're serving kids. But we are not doing anybody any favors, if we are not consistently developing ourselves, personally. And this idea of healing bumps up against our ego. I mean, that's part of the obstacle here. Because sometimes when we say the word healing, immediately, there can be these thoughts of there's nothing wrong with me, I'm fine. If you are human, which I'm assuming we all are, if you're listening to this podcast, we are walking trauma responses, that's just how it is. That is how we develop. That's how we've adapted. That's how we've navigated through this world. And healing isn't necessarily uncovering parts of you that are broken, because the truth is, you're not broken, nobody's broken, you're totally whole and beautiful and fine, just the way you are, you don't need any fixing. And because you've been on this human journey, there are things that have come up in your life that deserve to be looked at. So you can continue to grow and expand and ultimately have impact because that's really what we're doing here as educators is we are having impact on our communities, and the children we serve. And the capacity for that impact is limited by your ability to dive into your own personal growth. And that's that is really how I feel. So this work is incredibly important. And the work that you do and talking with people about this normalizes these conversations more and more, because that's the conversation that needs to continue. So we know now, we can have a conversation about healing, without everybody getting uncomfortable, because this is just what we do here.

Sarah Johnson 18:29
I agree with you 100% on all of this. And it's really interesting, because for example, if I go to a large organization, and I speak on the concept of going beyond, I share that framework about how to help you live a more full life as a professional. I personally watch the room and I'm always struck, and I've been doing this for five years now, Jen, and there's always a person sitting in the back with their arms just crossed look and skeptical as heck. And I at first I would be like, oh, there, you know, I'd question myself and that imposter syndrome would just plague me, you know, I always said, there's just gonna be one, there's just gonna be one that is gonna remind me of my purpose and keep me speaking vulnerably and saying these crazy things. And typically, they're the one that comes up and says, I needed this today. And sometimes the frustrating part is I just get to be that stimulator. And I never get to see where their journey goes. Because we're not on a coaching journey. It's just I dipped into them, I poured into them, I've given them whatever the pill from The Matrix, whatever that happens to be just kind of starting to realize it. At some point, we all need to get to that space to see it. And I'd so deeply appreciate what you said about impact and I know you are a person who loves to study. And I think that we've had such a disservice when we don't have educators study and understand the impact of vicarious trauma, and all of the things that are leading us to burnout because we weren't taught that stuff. We're just like, Oh, you're gonna go in and you're gonna have such an impact and you educator life is going to have a ripple effect forever. But what about the ripple back into our spirits when we are working to impact kids, then you're right are not broken. None of us are broken. But we are trauma butts up against stairs. And there's a trigger. And at some point, we learn that we have compassion fatigue, because we just don't have the healthy coping skills to manage the stress that nobody ever warned us about. Like it's not just about going in and teaching grammar and how to deconstruct sentences, it's getting to know these people, which is very purpose driven and spiritual. We just weren't prepared for that.

Jen Rafferty 20:33
We weren't prepared for that. And part of it is generational, the science even just of neuroplasticity is new, you know. So our older generations didn't necessarily know that this was even possible that this existed, that we can actively change our brains in a way where we can rewire the way that we respond to trauma where we can recognize what our mind body is trying to do with something that's activating with a situation that makes us feel a certain kind of way, we have this ability to look at this objectively. And the science just wasn't there until relatively recently. So the way that educators were taught, reflected their generations. And now we're in this time where we know what we know. So we can do better. And the reason why I love working with educators, one of the many reasons why I love working with educators is that I really believe that's the linchpin, because when educators start understanding this, and access the skills, which we learned skills are learned, they're not inherent, you're not born with them, we have to learn them. When we start getting really good at this work, it shifts a paradigm and we expand what's possible for our students. And I get choked up thinking, like just talking about this era, you know, we are shifting the way our future generations are going to live. Because you show up differently. That's what we're doing here. That's the generational change that we're making that yes, it's about your healing and your beautiful personal growth journey. And it's about the legacy because of the path that you're leaving in your wake. And that's the stuff that gets me up every morning.

Sarah Johnson 22:19
Oh, my gosh, I just heard fireworks and joy. And that, yeah, you just hear the passion coming from you. And I'm with you. I am so with you. And you've been able to witness that you can see that where you have this impact. And I know I just wanted to share personally, I think it's so good to help listeners who might be in a moment where they're like, okay, but I don't feel it right now Jen and Sarah like what you're saying, right now I'm just, I'm disillusion I'm exhausted, you can become empowered to do this work, again, with verve and passion. And I also think to that, I think about our students, and they just deserve the best versions of us. So not to play on that for you to play a guilt, I'm not doing that. It's just, it's their only year of third grade that they'll ever have. It's their only year as a junior, it might be your 16th or 17th, or 25th, in education. And that might be exhausting to you. But it is their only, and again, not that number. But man, you're so purposed, you don't just go in to a factory and punch of timesheet. And that work wasn't meant for you. It was the work to impact others. And you can do that when you are whole and healthy. And I love thinking about the work that you're doing for educators to help them feel that way. I have a question for you, Jen. Can I turn those back?

Jen Rafferty 23:35
Please, Yes.

Sarah Johnson 23:36
You and I both serve individuals. And I'm curious about your perspective on the impact of the systems because we work in a flawed industry that is beholden to politics and funding and all of the things so where are we out with that?

Jen Rafferty 23:54
Oh I love this question? I so I'm smiling so big, you can't see me if you're listening. But I have a huge smile on my face. Here's my thought about this era, it is so easy to point to organizations and say the system's broken, this isn't right, and come from a place of scarcity. It's easy, right? We don't get paid enough. There are too many kids in our classroom. There's not enough funding, we can go on and on and on and on. You cannot solve problems by looking at the problem, first of all. And then the second piece is that organizations do not change until people change period. And so there are a lot of folks who do work like this adjacent to what we're doing that are kind of break down the doors. And so I'm referencing actually a conversation I had with Amelia Gaskey on this podcast. I don't remember what episode it is, but I'll make sure I link it to break down the doors, right? We're loud. We're big, we have messages. It's very emotion driven. And what happens is those folks make a A lot of noise, and brings a lot of attention to the issues. However, they're not often the ones who make the most change. So I'm more of a back door inner, instead of a break the door downer. Because when we go in through the back door, that's how we're making systemic change one person at a time, one school at a time, one district at a time. And it comes from a place of wholeness, and empowerment and hope, and light, and healing and community. And that's the energy from which I want to make change in this space. And we can get angry, and we can express our disappointment in the broken system that's part of the healing is the expression of emotion. But building something from that space is never going to be sustainable. So that's how I look at this, that we are completely disrupting systems. By shifting the paradigm of martyrdom, of self sacrifice of even just the word tradition, which in my world, I think I've shared this with you to write tradition is just peer pressure from dead people, you know?

Sarah Johnson 23:59
I so love that.

Jen Rafferty 25:09
I don't hear that enough.

Sarah Johnson 26:12
Just question too, and it could be fine. But we need to ask questions is the serving us is the serving our community is this what's best for kids? Is this best for me and really understanding that the most generous thing you can do for the students is take care of yourself. And then when we really embody that, that's when the change will start to happen. Absolutely, I knew that you'd have an exceptional answer for that. So thank you. It's just one I can't and I you know, as I study organizational change, and think about how to be that person that stimulates organizational change, while also living this world, where as a coach and a consultant, and bit by bit, and I do believe we can change the world, one person at a time, I think that is a hopeful message. And I think that is, every time I hear you speak to it, it's clearly meant for your voice. So it really helped me again, to hear that and I still tradition is peer pressure from dead people isn't a great, you also have that wonderful phrase that I've heard you say more than once, which is the most generous thing you can do for your students is take care of yourself. And I can't help but I've been back in the school system in the last couple of years. And for some reason, people around me keep popping back in my mind as you're talking about it. And one example is somebody who was a teacher to my child, I have watched this individual in our small town, as somebody that really inspired me is this joyous light, and then watch that individuals struggle through some massive health challenges in the last couple of years and been grateful to be a part of that person's life where they say it's so hard for me because I've never had to struggle like this before. And it's really impacting my joy, but then be a colleague with that individual and watch, just in two years, a shift because that person finally said, "Okay, forget it. I'm taking care of myself". And now all of us, it's just like this cool little dip and then high again, like this incredible journey that I am so inspired by because it doesn't matter how long you've been at it, you can still take care of yourself. And, boy, I'll tell you that the kids in our community are so fortunate to have that individual pouring back into themselves so that they can continue this work. And it's a it's just gorgeous. It's so gorgeous. It's a perfect embodiment of what we're talking about. Yes.

Jen Rafferty 28:47
And in my world. And to be fair, I have rose colored glasses on unapologetically all the time. I never take them off. But I that's part of what drives me to because I see a world that doesn't quite exist yet. So when I look at the world with those lenses, I see a workforce of educators who are doing exactly what that teacher did that you just described. Because again, when you pour into yourself, you have things to give, you can't give something you don't have. And we say all the time, we can pour from an empty vessel, but on your own oxygen mask. But these are just sayings we throw around, but the embodiment of what those actually mean are the things that are going to make a difference. You can have a poster up. And that's fine. I suppose as a reminder, or even an affirmation. Those are great too. But unless you are walking the walk and embodying the work, nothing's going to change and it's really special to be able to witness and be a part of if you are able to be a part of a community where everyone in that community starts making that shift.

Sarah Johnson 29:57
Yes, and I felt like I I needed to share this because I don't think I have before. And as you were talking about this, thinking about being part of a community, thinking about it being more than just the words we say, like this work, it is hard work. And I know that you have a personal journey that has required you to dig in and really make some hard choices and even discipline yourself to take care of yourself and to not question dead people, but alive people, by the way, we talked about this whole imposter syndrome, this in your mind, but the reality is, there are actual people out there that will speak things to you, that will make you question when you're on that development, that journey of personal development, that's good for you, it's healthy. And you'll have people in your life that aren't ready for that, that don't like that change that are uncomfortable with you taking that journey, and they may express it. And so what you said about surrounding yourself with a community of people that are on that for you, that is so important. I remember. So part of my journey is that in 2014, I started a running streak. And I've shared this before that it started out in a really unhealthy space. And I say this, like there's an evolution there, I was running away, I didn't even know who I was anymore. I was running away from so much. Eventually I kept running through, I ran through identity crisis, I ran through losing my brother to suicide I ran through leading through chaos and all sorts of things. And then I eventually started to run toward the version of myself that was healthiest. And I keep striving for that. But I'll never forget a person literally telling me this, I felt like your listeners needed to hear this, saying you need to stop this running streak. It's going to become an obsession. And it was like, this person literally said to me, what are you going to do? When is it going to be enough? Are you going to run on your daughter's wedding day, it's just going to be a problem for you. And I remember saying, Actually, yeah, if I can have 15 minutes to myself on the day that is important to my daughter, whether it's her wedding or not, of course, she'd want her mom to show up as the best version of herself. But that was that person speaking negativity. For some reason they were jealous. They It wasn't even personally deeply embedded in my life, but just all sorts of that, like questioning my motivation, questioning whether I should know that I was thinking about that this morning, like, what in the world would possess a person to look at an individual who is clearly doing something for themselves and say, this is a problem for you?

Jen Rafferty 32:35
You know, why?

Sarah Johnson 32:36
Tell me?

Jen Rafferty 32:37
You know why? Because it's confronting, and there are two things, everyone's gonna have an opinion.

Sarah Johnson 32:44
You ask them nine, you're gonna get 11, right?

Jen Rafferty 32:46
Yeah, which is why what other people think is none of your business, it is always a reflection on them. And all judgment is self judgment because when they express that to you, it is really a piece of self judgment about themselves. Because you're right, when we are not surrounded by people who lift us up, it is really easy for those voices to get louder and to infiltrate our psyche in a way where we think maybe they're right, maybe I should? And as soon as you hear that word should it's over. That's judgment right there. Which is why the community piece is great, because then you can go to your community and say, Hey, I've been doing this really great thing. And so and so came up to me, and I'm having some feelings about this. And someone else, like me can be like, no worries, Sarah, that's a reflection on them. What do you say is none of your business, and that's the end of it. But to be left to your own devices and in processing that is not easy, which I think speaks to what you were saying earlier about community. And thank goodness, you found that running, if that was the thing that was able to center you and ground you and you made it a priority for yourself, "Yay, you!".

Sarah Johnson 34:04
Let's just from person who hated running. But you're you know what? 100%, right, I thought this morning, I'm so glad I didn't listen to that individual. And that person as I'm thinking about that story, because I hadn't recalled it stated that they had also been on a running streak. And on day 1000 had to put their shoes down because it was becoming an obsession for them. And therefore, projection. That's all it is. Yeah, it's true. I think back on it, and I think I feel healthy that I could recognize that I could continue that I had a community of runners that was helping me process through that. And then also that you can evolve something into being really healthy for you but having that self awareness too and yeah, so community. I think that's good and I just wanted to say too, I think that listeners might depending on where you're at with your own journey, think Oh, Sara and Jen man, they they've arrived, they they have it all figured out. I don't and I share this all the time like I've got my physical like body movement thing figured out in terms of taking care of myself. But there is consistent work that I need to do for healing always, this is this journey is never done until we're the dead people that are putting peer pressure on someone else.

Jen Rafferty 35:15
And that does alleviate some of that pressure around it. There's no ending spot, there's no destination, this is the journey. And it's uncomfortable and painful and beautiful. And the most exciting thing you can possibly do in this lifetime, because colors get brighter, your life gets richer, and you're more present to enjoy it. And that's what we want for everyone, and especially as your role in impacting school communities. So huge. I'm glad that you said that. So I have to ask you, now that we're kind of nearing the end of this, although we could talk forever. And I feel like we need to find another time for us to do this. So what is your dream for the future of education?

Sarah Johnson 35:15
My dream probably aligns pretty carefully to yours, which I assume is just that when educators who are beautifully purposed have a healthy sense, and it's not about money, or resources. But my dream is that every child could feel seen every day in the classroom, that they could feel validated and loved by the adult who is in charge of their learning for the day, that adult could feel seen and loved and validated by the people who are in charge of the building to keep them doing their work, that every middle manager could feel seen and loved and validated for the service that they give by all of the stakeholders that see them. I don't really care what the building looks like, I don't really care what resources that people do and don't have, but that people who show up every day to take care of our most valuable renewable resources, and our children love their work and feel loved in their work to me, that would be the best vision.

Jen Rafferty 37:08
Yes, more of that, more of that, more of that, please. Sarah this has been amazing and I would love for you to tell folks how they can learn more about you and get in touch.

Sarah Johnson 37:20
Well, first of all, I do find this work to be very important. And I teach some courses in a university here. And I always say I don't know where I'll be five years from now, but I know I'll be here for you. And so that is true for all your listeners. If you found any of this helpful and you want to engage, please just send me a message. I'm on all of the social outlets except TikTok, I'll probably get there. But it's @Sarahsajohnson. Sarah is with an H, where you can find me on my website, www.sarahsajohnson.com You can check out my own podcast where I had Jen as an exceptional guest recently. It's the "In Awe" podcast stands for amplifying women to empower community. And that's where the awe comes from, I have a couple of books that I published, "Balance Like a Pirate: Going Beyond Work-Life Balance to Ignite Passion and Thrive", and then also, "Lead with FAITH: Building a Firm Foundation so You Can Rise Up, Slay Fear, and Serve Well". You could grab either one of those on Amazon, or Yep, just DM me and let's talk.

Jen Rafferty 38:18
Amazing, all of those links will be in the show notes. It'll be super easy for people to get in touch and follow you and get your books and the podcasts and all the thing. It was a joy to be on your podcast too. So I'm glad that we were able to continue the conversation here and who knows what's next. So thank you so much for your time for the work that you do in this world. I really appreciate it.

Sarah Johnson 38:36
Thank you and same to Jen, I appreciate the honor of being on your show and anytime I get with you.

Jen Rafferty 38:41
My pleasure. And so if you liked today's episode, make sure that you leave a fantastic review, share with a friend and subscribe so you never miss an episode. And we'll see you next time on Take Notes. Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going and empowered educator faculty room on Facebook.

Empower every student and teacher: Tailoring education for neurodiversity with Dr. Matt Zakreski

Imagine a world where every child's unique learning style is not just recognized but celebrated.

That world is closer than you think!

Join us today as we explore neurodiversity in education with Dr. Matt Zakreski, a clinical psychologist and neurodiversity expert.

In this episode, you’ll discover how we can better teach and support neurodivergent children. Dr. Matt advocates for a shift from a one-size-fits-all approach to a more personalized learning experience.

You’ll also learn about inclusive education and how teachers and parents can work together for all students. We also talked about the importance of authenticity in teaching.

Grab your headphones and join us in our mission to transform the education system– this chat is full of ideas for anyone wanting to help kids learn in their own way!

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Dr. Matt:
Matthew “Dr. Matt” Zakreski, PsyD is a high energy, creative clinical psychologist and professional speaker who utilizes an eclectic approach to meet the specific needs of his neurodivergent clients. He is proud to serve the Gifted community as a consultant, a professor, an author, and a researcher. He has spoken over 400 times all over the world about supporting neurodivergent kids. Dr. Zakreski is a member of Supporting the Emotional Needs of the Gifted (SENG), the National Association for Gifted Children (NAGC), the New Jersey Association for Gifted Children (NJAGC), and Pennsylvania Association for Gifted Education (PAGE). Dr. Zakreski graduated from Widener University’s Institute for Graduate Clinical Psychology (IGCP) in 2016. He is the co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective: https://www.theneurodiversitycollective.com/

Connect with Dr. Matt:
Website: www.theneurodiversitycollective.com
FB: www.facebook.com/drmattzakreski

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty
Merriam Webster's word of the year of 2023 is authentic. This word has a number of meanings including true to one's own personality, spirit or character and is a synonym of real and actual. But all too often, we move far away from our authentic self, whether it's because of fear or insecurity, guilt, maybe societal pressure. But the truth is, the world needs your authentic self. Your uniqueness is your gift. And while I myself am peeling back my own layers every day to become more and more comfortable with my authenticity, I am learning that while it might feel scary and uncomfortable at first, that's actually where my magic is. And that's where yours is, too. And in today's conversation, it was very special and a lot of fun because my guest talks about how we can create safe spaces for all students, particularly our neuro diverse students. By being true to ourselves. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did. And as an Empowered Educator, you have a vision for education that goes far beyond our current reality. And if we keep on waiting and waiting for everything around us to change, we will be waiting forever. But the good news is you get to be the change, and it can start right here at Empowered Educator and our next workshop series starts on January 17. So let's start to make that transformational generational change one educator at a time because you deserve so much more. And so to our students, registration for the winter series is now open. So claim your spot at empowerededucator.com/workshops. You are a gift to this world, so act accordingly.

Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and does the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast. Where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former Music Teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. Today, I'm here with Dr. Matt Zakreski, who is a high energy creative clinical psychologist and professional speaker who utilizes an eclectic approach to meet the specific needs of his neurodivergent clients. He is proud to serve the gifted community as a Consultant, a Professor and Author and a Researcher. He has spoken over 400 times all over the world about supporting neurodivergent kids. And he is the co founder of the Neurodiversity Collective. Thank you so much for being here. Dr. Matt.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Thank you so much for having me.

Jen Rafferty
I am so excited to dive into this conversation today. And before we get into the juicy stuff, I want to just paint a picture about, who you are in the landscape of providing really important information about neurodiversity to the education systems?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, for sure. So I grew up as a gifted kid in New Jersey in the 90's. And I was identified in second grade, like a lot of gifted kids are, and it became very clear, even then, they didn't know what to do with me, right? Like, here's more Math Worksheets I'm like, but I've already shown I can do those. So it became this sort of detente of I would finish the work quickly. And I could finish fill the back of the page with all the doodles I wanted to. That was like, my unofficial 504. Right, it was like you're just filling up idle hands what they say, right. So, as my career moved around, I started seeing more and more gifted kids. You know, I got diagnosed with ADHD in high school, which explained a lot. And as I look back over my really, as the sort of perfect segue from your academic career to your professional career, teachers and mentors became their the checkpoints right there the through line. And for every teacher who taught me and they were all wonderful, there's a select few that still stick in my brain after all these years. So when I became a Psychologist, I was like, This is what I want to do, I want to serve this population. And the best way to serve this population is by serving the organizations and entities and communities that serve the kids I serve. And that's why my career has moved from being like a full time therapist, to a part time therapist and full time speaker, trainer, consultant sort of thing. Because that's the biggest bang for the buck. If we take care of the teachers, who take care of our kids, then everybody wins.

Jen Rafferty
And you are speaking to the choir, because that is literally why Empowered Educator exists too, we need to take care of the people who take care of our kids. And I was also labeled as a gifted kid in the 90's. And it's really interesting to reflect on that experience. Because then moving into the classroom, as a teacher, particularly where I taught in central New York, I didn't see a lot of differentiation for the kids who could have been classified as gifted. And I know a lot of things have changed politically, right when we were kids tracking was the thing. Now tracking is like a dirty word. We don't say that anymore. But there were no 504 plans for the gifted kids, there were only the 504 plans who needed some extra help. And now even the doodling is not so much something that we encourage. So what are you seeing some of the trends now? And what choices do teachers have in the classroom for making different choices about how they teach these kids?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
And I think that's the million dollar question, right? The cool thing about this, and I will own my bias here, right, because this is what I do for a living. But the research overwhelmingly shows that the best practices in gifted education are just the best practices in education full stop, because what do we do with gifted kids? We level set them. If you're a second grader, but you can read a fifth grade level, why am I giving you second grade books? I want to give you fifth grade books, maybe sixth grade books and challenge you a little bit we can apply that to every kid in every classroom in this country. And yes, most of them will probably be in the general cluster of second grade, awesome, super. But we're not defaulting into it right, we are being intentional. And I think intentionality is so important for an effective educational paradigm. Also, a lot of gifted kids, because they're so interest motivated, they get differentiation to their interests, right? If you have a kid who doesn't want to talk at all about architecture, but will build something for you in Minecraft, a lot of gifted teachers will say, Yeah, that's good enough, I can work with that. Why aren't we letting other kids do that? I do this little test, in one of my talks, I find a kid and I'm like, please do these 17 math problems for me. And the kid always looks at me with sort of like a big panic. And I'm like, No, like, trust me, I'm trying to prove a point here. And then I pull out another sheet and like, hey, like, Are you into Pokemon at all? And the kids like, Yeah, yeah, I like Pokemon, yes. I'm like, well, here are some questions about Pokemon. And they keep races through them. And they're grinning. They're having a good time. And afterwards, I'm like, you know what these questions about Pokemon about where the kid goes, I have no idea like, it's math. And there's that light bulb moment of the same kid who doesn't want to do a endless Xeroxed worksheet of 45 problems, would happily answer questions of if Charizard has 300 hit points, and takes 17 damage every time they're attacked, how many hit points before a Charizard gets knocked out. It's still math, right? And even though my bias is to talk about kids, what I have found is setting that stuff up takes a little bit more work for the educator upfront, but it saves you so much effort on the back end, it's like a little bit, a little ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right? Do the differentiation stuff be interest based upfront. And then when you know Sally's having trouble being motivated, you reach into your bag of tricks, and you say, Sally, I know these three things motivate you, how can we take this lesson and apply it to one of these three things that you love? And now you've got Sally in forever? You know, Sally's down, right?

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, forever. And that's part of this, too. We're creating a system within, I think, a very limited paradigm, steeped in tradition. And we don't live in that world anymore, where these educational systems first started to pop up. And we need to be reflective of the world that we live in today. And I think I'm going to take a little bit of what you said, and zoom out a little bit here, because the teachers who are in the classrooms right now are products of our own educational experiences of our own limitations. And so can we talk a little bit about the adults in these spaces and how we can not only navigate the students, but navigate ourselves and our own biases through our own experiences to create exciting, intentional learning environments for us?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Oh, yeah. In one simple, concrete way that things are different, right, was that we were both gifted kids growing up in the 90's, right? Do you remember when email became a thing?

Jen Rafferty
Totally. I remember exactly where I was when I first heard those email. And I remember it was yes, I do.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
It was a seminal moment for our generation.

Jen Rafferty
100% percent.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
You at AOL Instant Messenger? I'm assuming?

Jen Rafferty
Obviously.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
I'll bet you right. I bet you still know your password?

Jen Rafferty
Sure, do.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
You know, I mean, the lines of communication to teachers were unidirectional, and minimal for many years. Right? You saw them at parent-teacher conference. And that's probably it. Right? Now, teachers get more emails per day than CEOs. Because you've got 25 kids in your classroom, who have a certain number of grown ups were attached to them, both their parents and also like, mental health professionals, medical professionals, educational professionals, right. So teachers are just inundated with all this stuff, because there are more lines of communication. So the amount that the adults in the building need to be on isn't just seven to three anymore. If it ever was in the first place. Now it's really seven to seven if your luck and we have not bulked up the support paradigms to meet those changing needs in many ways to paraphrase what you said before many ways we're training teachers and sending them out with skills that are outdated for a paradigm that doesn't exist. And we're wondering why teachers are burning out and they're overwhelmed. It's so much harder than it's ever been. And yet, we're sending people out with a sharp stick into the jungle to fight tigers, when you could hop in a helicopter if you wanted to. But let's keep sending them out there with chopsticks. And we need to pivot at a much more macro scale than we have.

Jen Rafferty
I agree. And so two things about this, first of all, organizations don't change until people change, which for you and your work, and me and my work, I like to think about this as going in through the back door. Because when we really focus on the macro stuff, it's so big. And often, the efforts are minimal in a way that we don't always see them right away, when they come in through the back door, and we really talk with each individual teacher and each individual educator about okay, here's your stick, here's the helicopter, how do we build that bridge? That's really why I think change starts to happen and how we can create momentum. So my question to you is, then, what's the helicopter Dr. Matt?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
So to me, the helicopter is not just running around, putting out fires, because it's so easy to do that. I was a school counselor for many years. And the first year, it was all, I had kids running in and out of my office, anytime a kid was upset, they were calling me and down the hall, right? It was great work. But I was exhausted, I lost 20 pounds, I never stopped moving. And over the summer, I was like, this is not sustainable. And we built in a curriculum for Social Emotional Learning. And we also insisted that the parents come to monthly meetings, about social emotional stuff at home, because we needed to partner with the parents, and really working with kids is never easy. But it got easier, right? Because we weren't just dealing with 100 individual kids and their needs, we were dealing with a community of learners. And the adults that tend to their needs have said like, if you need this prep period uses the prep period, I didn't find these kids. But if you can stay because the strategies we're talking about will help you as well, right? The fundamental techniques are really the same, we just put a little different window dressing audit for an eight year old versus an eighteen year old versus a forty-eight year old.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it is all the same stuff. And you need to partner with parents, because unless we're all speaking the same language, we're not moving the needle forward. And that's a really important point that I think is often missed, in a lot of this work that we need to focus on the adults so that we can support kids. Because if we're giving kids tools that we don't necessarily know how to use ourselves, nobody is winning here. We're not being very helpful.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Well, when we think about one concrete way that adults in the education system, and adults outside the education system have to be aligned, it's about challenge. When you were a teacher, how many emails did you get from parents? They were like, I think little Johnny's being pushed too hard, or I need you to push Johnny harder. So then you would push Johnny harder. And then their parents would get upset. And you'd get that first email back. Right, this will now John has been pushed too hard. If we understand that acceleration, and level setting is as much a social emotional lesson as it is an academic lesson. Then we align the mental health professionals, the parents, the educators, the admin team, it's like, yes, Sally, who has never been challenged in math ever is going to have to do some algebra. And she's probably going to freak out at first, because this has never been hard for her before. But when we are aligned, and we move in lockstep, she can't find the weakest link. That's like, Oh, I know if I'm like that, I guess you're right. Education is stupid, we'll just put in schooling forever. And it's like, we've got to be aligned in this stuff. And for some reason, the answer to this question is a much longer and different podcast. But for some reason, parents feel very protective of how their kids are challenged in the academic space, right? As opposed to musically or theatrically or spirit and sports, right? They're like yeah, coaches work in you hard, because that's how you're gonna be a good gymnast, right? And we sort of stay out of those spaces. When it comes to teaching. For some reason parents are like, I don't like these books. You're using use different books. Right?

Jen Rafferty
Oh yeah, oh, we are we can go off on a big tangent about that. But I will say that, just like everything else, the way that we interact with our children, with our own or at school, comes from our own set of biases, beliefs, limitations that we learned along the way for ourselves and often get projected on our kids, which is not fair. But it's not your fault, because we're just human. This is how it works. And we create these challenges and obstacles for our kids that often aren't even theirs. So I'm fully with you with that and I would like to just sidestep a little bit because that I mean, that's so juicy. And that's really a lot of what this is, right? We keep repeating these old paradigms, because these are the limitations that we've grown up with, and we don't know any better. So we need to seek out information like this podcast and other places where we learn more and grow more. So we can be more intentional in our actions for our kids. Because while we're talking about the adults, it's really about the kids because those are going to be the people who are going to lead the way for our next generation. And that's why this work is so important. So I want to talk about authenticity. That's something that you share a lot about, and has kind of been a theme for me personally, over the last few months, too, as I'm going through my own journey and all of this. Can you share a little bit about why that is so important?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
So if we think about authenticity, let's frame this in terms of macro-culture versus micro-culture, right? The macro-culture is the things that are capital P popular, right? Are you into Taylor Swift at all?

Jen Rafferty
I'm afraid to say no, but I'm not into Taylor Swift. My daughter is very much into Taylor Swift. Yeah.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
What was put is the macro-culture, right? I certainly have half dozen songs on my Spotify. She's not in my top 10 favorite artists, but I respect her. She's got game, right?

Jen Rafferty
Totally.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Taylor Swift is the macro-culture. Have you ever heard of the band Trampled by Turtles?

Jen Rafferty
I haven't.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
They are one of my favorite bands, right? They are a small niche sort of like jam-band, countryrock. They're awesome. Big fan of Trampled by Turtles. And the other day I was walking through a warehouse. I was in New Orleans at a conference. And I was logged in and I saw somebody wearing a Trampled by Turtles and I like sprinted across three lanes of highway I was like, chill, Trampled by Turtles because it's obscure. That's a micro-culture, right? So a lot of the lessons that kids get, is that the macro-culture is what is valued and messaged, right? We're supposed to watch the Super Bowl, we're supposed to watch Game of Thrones, right? We're supposed to have Disney plus, and there's good content on all those things, right? By all means, do the thing. There's nothing wrong with engaging in the macro-culture. But if that's as far as your journey goes, then you're missing a fundamental part of yourself, you're not personalizing it. So personalizing it is being willing to explore and find your own music or finding an obscure movie that you like, not just go to the splash page of Disney plus, but be like, Hey, if you follow these eight sub menus, you find some really weird old school Mickey cartoons from the 70s that are like funky, and I love it. Right? That's a place where you can be authentic within broader culture without broader spaces. And that's hard for teachers, especially new teachers, because they're like, You know, there's this sort of, unspoken paradigm of what a teacher looks like, acts like, is shirt and tie, conservative dress and leggings, right? There are pieces to it. But what I always tell teachers when I work with them is think about the pop culture teachers who taught you the most. What did they look like? And people always bring up the big three. Bill Nye the Science Guy, Bill, right, Miss Frizzle? Right? Absolutely.

Jen Rafferty
I was there for Halloween, actually, I think favorite teacher.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Big props, big props on that. And you could go with a lot of different directions Miss Blessed from the old school Saved by the Bell, Mr. Feeny from Boy Meets World. But they all had a look. And they all had a personality, they allowed that to step into the space. Even if you're a more contemporary example, I guess Will Schuester on the surface looked like, sweater vest and button up. But I mean, great singer and dancer and certainly was willing to work with the cup kids. That's what authenticity is. It's not necessarily looking the part, it's making sure that you are the part, right? You find the parts of your personality, that make you light up and you bring that energy to your kid. I mean, the best lesson I would ever teach in social emotional learning, was based on a workshop that I do around cognitive flexibility, right? So we is all about the difference between facts and opinions, and something that gifted kids and other neurodivergent kids can really struggle with. And it's my favorite lesson to do because, I made the intervention that's a part of this. I'm really passionate about it. It's a great lesson, if I can bobble that I could do that every day for the rest of my life. And I'm perfectly competent to teach deep breathing or conflict resolution. But those things are a little bit more stuff I do rather than who I am. And the more we can center who we are in our teaching and whatever professional role you are. That's where we're going most engaged, that's more and most challenged. And that's when we do our best work.

Jen Rafferty
I agree with everything you just said. So now my follow up questions, I have lots of I'm going to start with this one. First one being, why do you think in your experience and your observations? Is it so hard to connect with yourself, and honor yourself enough to explore who you are, and then create your mark in this world that is uniquely yours, particularly, as somebody who's neurodivergent,

Dr. Matt Zakreski
I think, because we get so much messaging around, implicitly and explicitly around the macro-culture. That's our brain sort of default to, That's right. That's what we're supposed to do. And there's nothing wrong with that. But to engage more in the things that make us unique, the things that fire us up, you need three things. You need time to explore those things. You need courage to put that out there. And you need systems and environments that support that courage. And if you're honest with yourself, is your life right now, does it look like you have those three things? I am a professional nerd. When I'm in therapy, we're talking deep Star Wars canon, right? You want to talk about some obscure Pokemon, I'm your guy. I do therapeutic Dungeons and Dragons with one of my clients. That's just what we do every week, we just do deep D&D scenes. And when I started my career, I was much more cut and dry. I was much more layers a CBT manual, we're going to be some dog debate for therapy, and it's going to help. And with time and confidence and support systems, I come up with a vibe that is more authentic, and I think more effective. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. If you don't understand any of those references I just made, I'm probably not a great therapist for you. But if you're sitting there, You go like way to say that he just say D&D? And you're like looking around awkwardly, as you're like listening to this podcast, then yeah, because centering the things that make you, you, are the things that other people really vibe on, right? So you've got to have the time to explore those things, right. That's why teachers need more prep periods, they need more professional development, they need more time to grow and reflect and evolve. And we need to tell our teachers, Hey, bring yourself into the classroom, it's an easy thing to say. But we as an admin team, have your back. So if you show up tomorrow, wearing a super funky 70's jumpsuit, because that's how you feel you're going to be your best teacher, then when we get the inevitable away as Mrs. Johnson doing that emails, I'm gonna have your back, right? Because it's hard to be courageous on your own. It's a lot easier to be courageous when a system stands with you.

Jen Rafferty
Yes. And well, you know, when you're saying that did something to me, because that is truly the world that I see is possible, which is why I get up every morning, do the work that I do and to have these conversations because there's that on the other side of that is freedom. And that that feels so good. It feels so good. And how can we possibly expect our students to learn and feel safe exploring their authentic selves. If we as the adults in these spaces are so closed off to it. It doesn't matter what you tell them, we need to be able to say, Watch me, that's where all the power is.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
When you think about those teachers, like the leaders in your history. I remember my sophomore in high school English teacher, Miss Brady, and we were doing the obligatory English literature unit, we had just finished Chaucer. And we were talking about whether Chaucer is relevant today. And she's like, You know, I teach these sort of dusty, stuffy English novels. She's like, I go to the grocery store, and I buy those like romance novels, which inevitably have a super jacked guy whose shirt is falling off and like the Buscemi woman next to him, see that's my favorite thing. And she's like, do you want to know how Chaucer shows up in those stories? And she did a lesson on that. And I can remember the vast majority of it, twenty, almost thirty years later. And it takes some courage to talk about those things that make us, us, but I remember like Chaucer has never made more sense to me than it did to looking at it through the lens of these ridiculous dimestore grocery romance novels. But you know what, now I can't see one when I go to the grocery store myself and think Chaucer which is a weird thing, right? Worsen, I was like, Ah, yes, Chaucer.

Jen Rafferty
But that's the special sauce, that you are this special sauce. And I think that's the thing of everyone realized and found safety and support and those systems, you're 100% correct about those systems that support the special sauce. That's when everything really starts to change. And the other day you posted something on Facebook, which by the way, if you don't follow Dr. Matt on Facebook, make sure you do, because his content is fantastic. You talked about masking. And this is something that I resonated with, because the masking was important to me, because I thought that if I showed up as the person that everyone else thought that I was supposed to be, then that's how I would achieve. That's how I would feel successful. That's where I would get my validation and good job Jens. And what it led me to, was a whole lot of confusion and questioning, which we're also not going to go into right now in this particular podcast. So can you talk about that about masking?

Jen Rafferty
Masking biases a seat at the table, in the macro-culture in the things that feel safe? Somebody invites you to a Super Bowl party, and you go, like, I don't like football, but I go to a Super Bowl, but it's a yes, I will eat the wings, and I will drink the beer. And I will watch the Super Bowl. And I happen to love wings and beer and football. So let's go, let's do that. When my wife comes to our Super Bowl party, she's in charge of doing the absurd prop bets, right? She's like, Okay, how long is the national anthem going to be? Is going to be two and a half minutes over or under? How many times where they can throw those yellow flags. I'm like, penalty flags, and she's got a yellow ones, right? That's how she engages in it. And that's great. That's a wonderful. Some people only show up for the commercials and the halftime show. Awesome. I just want you here. And I want you to hear and feel free to say that I'm only here for the commercials. And I'm only here to see Rihanna at halftime, right? Because otherwise, you're sitting in a chair miserable, pretending you like a thing, punching two holes in your bucket. One that you're spending a lot of energy pretending to be or do something you don't like. And two, you're miserable, because you're not engaging in things that make you authentically happy, right? As a gifted kid, I got into the center for talented youth summer camp. And it was after sixth grade was the first time I went. And I have a distinct memory of sort of SOC, Yeah, I gotta go to this camp. Is that a college? Boy, you pretty cool. And I remember my friend Steve making me like a nerd protector. He's like, this will protect you from the nerds. I'm like, Yes, thank you for that, I will use it to defend myself from the nerds. And I got there. And I made some like snarky academic reference. And it was like, Yeah, well, that's true. But what about this other thing I like?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
And you can trace my evolution from masking to authenticity. Through the five years I attended CTY from a top down way to like, actively loudly counting down the minutes, right? And in high school after freshman year, like I need a whole new group of friends and we're all theater kids. And theater is all about authenticity. Right? What do you guys like or like, I'm gonna nerd gap. And they're like, We don't know what that is. But we're so excited for you. And just thinking about how different that felt than being in the backseat of that car. Having your friend hand you a nerd protector? Yeah, right? And I just realized that leading with the things that make me happy that bring me joy. There is sometimes a cost for being your authentic self, I can't pretend otherwise. There are times that masking is a safe and reasonable thing to do. But find as many situations as you can, and as many people as you can, that you can drop the mask and be like, Yes, on weekends, I put on full 13th century garb and do live action roleplay, right? Or I have never missed a Star Trek convention since 1997. Or I won 16 different forums on Reddit, about Doctor Who. By all means do the damn thing, right? And the more spaces you have for that, the more places you can safely anchor in being your true authentic self. That refuels your tank in a powerful, meaningful, lasting way. And that's the kind of self care that we don't give teachers enough, right? Moments to be real. And ironically, that's what our kids want. I mean survey after survey after survey of students, they want authenticity from their teachers. And because broader systems tend to be conservative, they tend to be scared. Hold on, I'll just wear the shirt and tie and do the lesson plan and don't make waves and have a very boring social media presence or you say, Hey, here's who I am. Here's the space I'm going to take up, and yes, it's not for everybody. But you can go to McDonald's in literally millions of cities all over the world, and McDonald's is basically McDonald's. Whether you're in Topeka, Kansas, Miami, Florida, Toronto, wherever you might be. Or you, go to the cool little bistro that's on the other side of town, and you might love their food, or you might hate it. But you better believe that the cool little bistro that's cooking the things that feel authentic and real to them, is going to have hardcore fans, because people glam onto it, just like radio waves, you can feel that frequency.

Jen Rafferty
Absolutely can. And you're right, this is exactly what everybody needs. Yeah. And it is right in front of us. But because of, I think the systems, because of our perceived costs and real costs, we shy away from it, which is why this work is so important. So can we shift a little bit in that direction about where can people find their community, their space where the cost seems a little bit less, and the safety seems to be a little bit more?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
I love that. So this is what I like to call the day-off test. So I hereby grant you a day off. A day off from school, a day off from responsibilities, right, your lesson plans and sub plans are written, your partner is taking the kids or your parents are taking the kids, you have a whole day to do whatever the heck you want to do. And those are the rules of this imaginary experiment. What would you do? And most adult teachers was asleep yet? Yes. Let's also log an extra nap. Right? But now that we've woken up, what do you want to do. And there's this really interesting thing that happens where you have to peel back the layers, before we get to authenticity, people will like I take a nap, I'd probably have a cup of coffee, I putter around in my garden, that's good. Those are all great things. But those are all parts of the macro-culture. So you got to stick with it. This is like obscure french film that I know is on Amazon Prime that I really want to watch. Okay, so now we're talking about obscure french film, right? Or like, Oh, my gosh, I've been meaning to go see Spider Man Far From Home. So I'm gonna go because I love the MCU, I'm going to do that, right? Or I'm going to read this book, or I'm going to do a painting, or I am going to go to a Slam Poetry Jam in a warehouse in New York. Like, when you have a day off when you have that time and space, and the freedom to explore those things. That's when people provide their own answers to what is my authenticity? Right. And we are so busy, and we are constantly Indiana Jones, sprinting in front of the giant boulder. That's why I do this exercise of give yourself the mental space to say what would I do given the time? And the answers that emerge will tell you what are the things that make you most authentic. And if you don't, if nothing comes up, that's fine. Think about the last time in your life where you felt really connected, connected to people, connected to things. For some people, it's service, for some people it's religion, for some people it's drinking cheap light beer in a basement, right? Think about those places, those people, those activities, because one of the great framing things we talked about in mental health is place and people give you purpose. You can't find your purpose until you find your place an your people, right. But since most of us are seeking purpose, because seeking purpose leads to authenticity. Go back and think about maybe it was, in high school when you were volunteering on the track team. Okay, I guarantee you there's a running club somewhere in your community that you can either run in or help out with, right? It's important to know that our brains like to think in all and nothing right, black and white. And yes, we are adults and we have responsibilities. We have mortgages or rent, or children or jobs and a million other things, right. You may not be able to quit your job as a third grade teacher and join the circus. But you certainly can take juggling classes and see the circus when it's in town. And if we say instead of getting everything I wanted, I understand that every step I take towards that goal is value added. That kind of shift in thinking fuels our tanks and allows us to enter the world with more energy with more enthusiasm, and thus, we feel better, so we do better?

Jen Rafferty
Yes. And have our kids watch us do that as models of people who prioritize our authenticity.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Absolutely.

Jen Rafferty
So as we're closing up this interview, because I would love to talk to you forever. And unfortunately, we cannot. I want to know, and this is a big question. Yeah. What is your dream for the future of education?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
My dream for the future of education is both very simple and very complicated. My goal for the future of education is to ask kids what they want to learn, and structure education around those goals. So if you have a kid who wants to be an artist, then I want to throw as much art as that kid as I can. And layer through that fundamental skills in reading, writing, and math that they're going to need to understand art and to do art, right? You can't do art without science. You got to learn science to do art. But it's secondary in terms of supporting the broader goal, right? What we do is instead of going to a restaurant ordering what you want to eat, we jam our kids full of bread and wonder why they're not hungry for dessert, right? Let's reframe education along those lines of what do you want to learn? And parents and be like when I was six? I wanted to be marine biologist. Cool. Well, I couldn't have been marine biologist at six. No, you probably can't. There's not a Doogie Howser PhD, Marine Biology. But there's nothing to say that the more we engage in conversations and lessons and pedagogy around the stuff our kids already want to learn and do, that they, worst case scenario, they fall in love with learning. Best case scenario, they're like, Yes, I do want to be a marine biologist, how do I continue to take steps towards that goal. So it's a simple concept of the future. But it's very complicated to implement. But we have to have these conversations now. So we can start changing the systems, so we can educate, and train the professionals who are going to fuel those systems to do this work.

Jen Rafferty
And the reason why I asked this question to everybody is because I do believe that the more we say our dreams out loud, the closer we are to actualizing them. So thank you for that. I hope we're one step closer.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, let's manifest this stuff, right?

Jen Rafferty
Yes, please. So before we close out, can you share with our listeners how they can get in touch with you and learn more about you and your work?

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, the best way to get in touch with me is through our website, name of my practice is the theneurodiversitycollective.com. I have unique last name, Matthew Zakreski. So if you punch my name into Google, a lot of stuff comes up. But you were nice enough to name drop my Facebook page. And we have a lot of fun there. And really, if the things I'm talking about make sense to you, as a professional, as a parent, drop me a line because I can always come to you, I can always come and do a workshop, do a PD, even sit and talk to a bunch of parents or professionals and say, here's what I know, how can I use that knowledge to make your lives easier. And when I do that, everybody wins. So part of the reason that I think you and I get along so well, Jen, is that we have very similar missions, and similar vibes. And if you're sitting there thinking to yourself, I'm not sure if I'm worthy of that, of calling these professionals in, I will tell you you are and it may not feel that way, but you are worthy of that investment, you're in worthy of this time, because the best version of you makes you a better partner, a better parent, and a better professional. And there's nothing more important than showing up as the best version of yourself.

Jen Rafferty
Yes, that's it. And I hope that people take you up on it, all of those links are going to be really easy, because they're going to be right in the show notes. So if you're interested, go ahead and click on those right away and get in touch with Dr. Matt. It's been a pleasure to talk with you this morning. Thank you so much.

Dr. Matt Zakreski
It really has been so much fun.

Jen Rafferty
Good. I'm so glad. And I hope we can do this again soon. So thank you for your time and talents and the work you do in this world. We all appreciate it

Dr. Matt Zakreski
Right back atcha Jen and yes, I'd love to come back.

Jen Rafferty
So fantastic. Thank you. And if you enjoyed today's episode, which I know you did, go ahead and write us five star reviews. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode and share with a friend. And we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

How teachers advocate and ally for transgender rights in education with Flint Huffman

Creating a safe and inclusive environment is crucial not just in our homes and workplaces, but also in our schools.

In today’s episode, I had the privilege of speaking with Flint Huffman, a veteran transgender teacher and content creator. Flint is not only a figurehead in transgender advocacy but also an inspiring voice in education policy.

Flint shared his personal journey of transitioning in the public eye, both as an educator in front of hundreds of students and as an influential online presence.

We spoke about the complexities of creating safe spaces in schools and inclusive education, the current challenges facing trans teachers and students, and the importance of advocacy and allyship in education.

Flint's insights on the current climate surrounding transgender issues in education are both enlightening and thought-provoking.

Join us for this important conversation, where we learn, understand, and celebrate the courage it takes to foster inclusivity in our schools.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Flint:
Flint (he/they) is a veteran transgender teacher and content creator with over a decade of experience in the classroom. In addition to working in policy and action in his community, he has more than 300,000 followers across TikTok and Instagram, where he makes videos about trans life and history, education, and "general teenage weirdness.”

Connect with Flint:
IG: @justflintisfine

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty
Creating a safe and inclusive environment in schools is essential for all students to thrive. And in today's episode, I had the privilege of speaking with flint Huffman, a veteran transgender teacher, a figurehead in transgender advocacy and an inspiring voice in educational policy. Flint shared his personal journey of being in the public eye while transitioning, and we spoke about the complexities of creating inclusive educational environments regarding the current challenges that trans teachers and students face. And what we came to was this, so much of it comes down to self love, how you can love yourself enough to have the courage to authentically express who you really are, and therefore create space for others to do the same. This conversation was one of my favorites, and I really hope you enjoy it as much as I did. And Empowered Educator workshops are filling up for this January, so grab your seat at empowerededucator.com/workshops and discover how your impact changes when you focus on your own social and emotional well being. the well being of a school is dependent on the well being of its educators, so it's time to shift the attention to you. Empowered Educator is changing the landscape of professional development, and its impact is making generational change. The Empowered Educator winter series starts January 17. And registration is now open. Claim your spot at empowerededucator.com/workshops. You are a gift to this world. So act accordingly.

Jen Rafferty
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former Music Teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and Founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are, in this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty
Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another fantastic episode of Take Notes. Today I have an incredible guest with me is Flint Huffman. Flint, he/him is a veteran transgender teacher and content creator with over a decade of experience in the classroom. In addition to working in policy and action in his community, he has more than 300,000 followers across Tiktok and Instagram, where he makes videos about trans life and history, education and general teenage weirdness. And I so appreciate you being on the show today, because that is where I found you, which was on Instagram on one of your incredible videos talking about all of those things. So thanks for being here.

Flint Huffman
Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it's gonna be a great conversation, and a really important conversation, and a timely conversation. And as a trans teacher, you know, the microscope was on as you're actively changing your pronouns and figuring things out for yourself. What is that? Like? Tell me about that experience? Not just personally, but being an educator.

Flint Huffman
Yeah, transitioning is, for those of you who don't have a trans person in their lives, transitioning is a really uncomfortable experience. Because you start to understand you have an inner knowing. You have an inner knowing you realize that something's not right, and you figure it out that it's probably something gender related. And so you start transitioning, but it's like physically and mentally uncomfortable. You're like, you're a lobster, who has outgrown a shell, that you've been forced into for so long. And you're doing it very publicly, right? All that transitioning, socially right, changing your pronouns, cutting your hair, in my case, wearing things that are a lot more comfortable for me. But then also medically, right, I got top surgery over the summer, I started taking testosterone. And all of that is uncomfortable enough to experience just in your own personal life, I was doing it with an audience of 200 teenagers. And on a larger scale, I have a pretty substantial online audience that I started curating when I started transitioning, because it was so isolating, it was really hard to do it by myself and do it so publicly. And I wanted to try to find other teachers that were going through it as well.

Jen Rafferty
So through that, how has that community shifted, and for you, and for the other teachers who are also transitioning that you've connected with?

Flint Huffman
I think there's a lot of fear now, there's always been fear being trans. I'm not talking as if it's ever been better. I think it's been a little bit quieter. I started advocating for trans students about 10 years ago. For those of us in the queer community, we know that a lot of us are really aggressive allies before we start to understand ourselves, right? We're like, I don't know, I just think gay people should have rights. I'm not gay. I just think that they should, then then you're like, Okay, actually, maybe I might be a little bit gay. That's what happened to me. I was very vocal as an advocate for trans students for a long time. For the most part, I was telling people about trans experiences for the first time, when I would tell them about trans kids. They wouldn't really know what that meant. I'd have to explain it. And when you're hearing about it for the first time, you just say, Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that was a thing. What can I do? So at the time, it was like bathroom access, and then all of a sudden, you start having these conversations and people have an idea of what you're talking about and have decided that they know what that means before you finish your sentence. And so you would go in to talk to me about trans students, or in my case, even about myself, and they would have feelings about what that meant. I've had some very uncomfortable conversations with colleagues, with neighbors with family members that I don't know, I would have had five years ago, if this was an entirely novel concept for them. So people, even though they don't have any personal experience with trans people, decide that they know what it means to be trans before we have a chance to tell our own story. And that's what other trans teachers I know had experienced as well. A lot of misinformation and a lot of outright hate that has made it really challenging for us to exist.

Jen Rafferty
I know that you just posted something about this, and I was reading something that Brene Brown had written a day or two, prior to posting this thing, it's really hard to hate people close up. So why is that so difficult, when you are face to face with somebody, and there is an absence of this human connection? What is the message there? What is the situation there, that it is happening so often? And with such vile aggression, that I want to know more about that? What is that?

Flint Huffman
Yeah, first, I'd like to say that my heart sings when I hear you quote, Brene Brown, I get very excited. So thank you for giving me another reason to trust you, and your wealth of experience. And I think that it is hard to hate people close up. But it's easier when you have robbed them of their humanity. Before you meet them. Right? You've decided that you're not talking to a person, you're talking to a predator, you're talking to a threat, you're talking to somebody that isn't real. That's when it gets easier, right? That's one of the reasons I think a lot of hateful people are mad about me working with kids about trans people working with kids, is they don't want kids to have the chance to humanize us before they have a chance to undo that. Right? I've been teaching for 11 years, I've had something like 2000 students, that's 2000 people who knew me as a person before they knew anything else about me, that's going to be a win, right? I'm stepping away from the classroom in the next month, I'm done, right, I'm tapping out. But it really does feel like a big win, to have had the opportunity to humanize my community. And it's a sad sentence to have to say, right? I don't think that's the thing that marginalized people should have to do. We talk a lot about representation in classrooms or representation and literature, right. But we forget sometimes what it means to ask somebody to be that person to be the representation, you're asking them to take a lot of personal risk and to potentially hurt themselves for the benefit of others. That's hard. That's a hard ask.

Jen Rafferty
It's an impossible ask for anybody, let alone a child, who is figuring that out for themselves, wherever they are, adolescence sucks, no matter what's happening. And then to create this marginalized space for someone who's just going through a more challenging transition, it seems just torturous. So one of the responsibilities that we have, as educators, is to create safe spaces for every child who walks through our doors. And yet, there seems to be controversy about what safe space means. There needs to be action, and dialogue, and evidence of what safe spaces actually look like. So if we were to paint a picture, what does a safe space look like?

Flint Huffman
I'm really glad that you're talking about that. Because that is something that we've spent a long time saying that we want to curate, we want to have safe spaces, we have signs in my school that say safe zone, right? And that question of what does that then mean? What do you do to make sure that space is safe? You can't just call it that. You can't say my class is a safe space? What evidence does a kid have that if they come to you with something challenging, or they come to you in need? That's going to be a safe place to express that? Can they come in dressed weird? Can they come in having an accent that day? Can they come in deciding to change their pronouns? And what is it going to look like with their classmates and with you? That's the big question, right? That's what a safe spaces is a place where you feel okay, expressing yourself where you can have an identity that's not going to be ridiculed, but it's actually embraced. And I think that it's hard to have a safe space for students if we feel like we don't have a safe space for teachers. That's been the biggest conflict I think with my schooling with my district is a lot of talk about safe spaces. But then we've continued to see issues of hate and intimidation and discrimination, that for the most part goes unchecked. That happens in a lot of schools. I don't know if I have the answer for how we fix that. A lot of it is structural, but I do know that it's gonna be it's really challenging, right to have a space where students can feel safe if the adults that are supposed to be curating those spaces don't feel safe themselves.

Jen Rafferty
Well, and that's the whole thing. And to be frank, that's why Empowered Educator exists because what we're doing is we're leapfrogging over the needs of the adults in these spaces and focusing on kids. But then we're missing the point, because if we ourselves are in pain, if we ourselves are going through our own journey and navigating our own life and figuring things out ourselves and struggling, how can we possibly create a space where a child feels safe enough to navigate it for themselves? We just can't. And so, you know, I'll also be honest here, I wear rose colored glasses on my face, unapologetically all the time. And I really do believe that if we focus on teacher well being and creating safety for teachers, that will drip down to the kids and help fix a lot of these very serious problems.

Flint Huffman
I think that's absolutely right. If I'm a parent, and I've given my child over to a school, I want teachers who feel safe and empowered and rested, that have the resources they need, because you can't show up emotionally, intellectually for a child, if you yourself, don't have the capacity for that. And so I think you're right, I think that we talk a lot about what we're going to do with money in schools or cutting down class sizes, we have lots of things that we want to do to improve education. But we don't often talk about how to improve circumstances for the teachers that are supposed to be delivering that education.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah. And unfortunately, you're leaving.

Flint Huffman
Yeah, I tried not to, I promise I tried.

Jen Rafferty
Well, I mean, I say, unfortunately, unfortunately, for your community, and for the kids who won't have you in that role, however, you know, as somebody also who left the classroom, recognizing that that is a healthy choice, and a powerful one, that you can now have space to advocate, and do work in different ways that can have even greater impact. So can you talk about why you made that transition to leave?

Flint Huffman
Yeah, it's been a very long and challenging decision. I started thinking about what it might look like to leave the classroom. I think, probably a year and a half ago. I think every teacher who was teaching during the pandemic thought about what it looked like to leave, and we were all like, no, we'll just wait, we're gonna wait it out. It'll be different when we come back and I was ready, I was ready to recommit to being in the classroom, I was so excited to have my students back, to be in the place that I love doing the thing that I love doing. And it started, right, with being put on Fox News, I was on Fox News, four or five times over the course of six months, in which an author chose to use my full dead name, which isn't for those of you who are not familiar, a dead name is the name that a trans person was assigned at birth that has chosen to leave behind. So my dead name was used. It's not my legal name. They also put the school I was at, the district I was at, made it very easy for people to find me, and I started getting just a daily use of threats, right. There was a credible bomb threat made to my classroom, they tried to target my home, people called and threatened to burn the school down, it was horrifying. The things that people were saying they were upset about. This is the very beginning of moms for liberty and book banning. They were mad about LGBT books in my classroom, not ones that were like part of my curriculum, but just in a bookshelf. And that was the beginning right of deciding what was going to be worth it was my safety worth my representation worth my career, I tried to stay and it kept coming back up again, it was obvious that it wasn't going to go away that me being trans, me being openly and proudly queer, was going to be something that some members of my community would never be okay with, and would continue to fight against until I couldn't do it anymore. And so it feels a little bit like a defeat. But I'm really proud of myself for deciding to step away for myself and for my kids, because it's not fair to be in an environment in which your teacher is afraid.

Jen Rafferty
Well, I know we don't know each other well, but I know that the impact that you are going to be able to make outside of the classroom is going to be far reaching, more so, than you could have done in the four walls of your classroom. And that's one thing, and I think it's important also to talk about how then the trans students who are in your district are experiencing being witnesses to your experience. Can we talk about that for a little bit?

Flint Huffman
Absolutely. It's something that I think about all the time. I have, we all have trans students, right? Whether you choose to see that you have trans kids in your classroom or not. There are some students that won't choose to be comfortable coming out until after they finish with K12. But we all have trans kids. And I know mine more, right, I'm the advisor for our Queer Student Alliance. And so I'm super familiar with my trans students. And I know how hard it is to transition even as an adult, like how much capacity that takes, especially in the environment that we're in now, where it seems like every day there's a new bill, trying to restrict your health care or tell you what you can or can't read, where you can live, right the fact that I'm going through to try to find a new job and as part of that, I had to look at a map for relocation to see what states I couldn't move to, because they would have restricted access to health care there. Or I would be living under discriminatory laws and housing or employment. So like living in that environment as a kid, just starting to figure yourself out, you said earlier, right? Being a kid is hard enough, going through puberty is hard enough. I feel for them very deeply, I do. And I can't imagine what it's got to be like to see someone who should be your example for what a happy fulfilling trans life, the fact that they can't do the thing that they love, because of the hate in your community, it's got to feel really hopeless. I think the chances of any of the students that I have hearing this are pretty small. But I do know that things get better over time. And right now we're doing what my dad has called the dead cat bounce, where all of these points of view are failing, right? Hateful ideology is less popular now than it ever has been. It doesn't feel that way, but it is true. We are I think experiencing the last, final, shaking, oblivion of this hateful attitude, and we're gonna survive it, we're gonna get through it, we're gonna see the other side, I am a happy and healthy, thriving trans adult, who just needs a change of environment, who needs a new place to feel good and to feel safe. And being trans is a gift. I love who I am. I love my trans community. I am happier now than I ever have been in my life no matter what. And just in case, any of the trans kids who are feeling hopeless or listening, you are great and wonderful and loved and you are going to have an exceptional life.

Jen Rafferty
I think that there's something really important that you said here, and you are a proud trans person who loves who you are. I think there is such an absence of self love that causes so much of this outward hate. And I have my own queer journey. And through that journey, I've had to really get to know myself really well. And the self love that has come from that journey has been incredible, and liberating in so many different places where I choose to be in my life. And I want that journey for everybody, a returning to self and the self love that then can permeate outward. But there's been such a disconnect from all of that, which really causes people to pit themselves against each other.

Flint Huffman
You know, I think you're right. And this idea of self denial, which is what you're talking about where you choose actively not to look inward and not to understand or to love yourself. Queer people, I think, have a unique opportunity to get rid of that self denial. As soon as we start to understand ourselves, you really do have to spend a lot of time with you, going through a queer journey, not saying the straight people can't have a journey. But for us, it's inevitable. You have to spend more time inward. And so I think that you're right, that a lot of people who experience hate, don't spend a lot of time with themselves, they don't think super hard about who they are or why or the metacognitive function is just not metacognitive-ing. It's just not happening.

Jen Rafferty
I - to using that word from now on, I use metacognitive a lot. But now, metacognitive-ing that is now-

Flint Huffman
Metacognitive-ing. And yeah, there it is, I think absolutely. And now self denial, you know, honestly, is really common in education. I'm not gonna lie, there are a lot of teachers that focus so much on everybody else around them that they don't spend time with themselves. They don't consider themselves first they don't think about what they need. And I have a colleague, who's right at the beginning of her career right now. And you couldn't have told me anything when I was 25 either, right? Like, I didn't hear shit, when people were telling me how to prioritize my life or you don't want to take grading home. I was like, I know who my wife is. But I'm watching her do the same thing that I did when I was the beginning of my career, where she's staying way too late. And she's going to every single school function and she's taking work home over a break, she came back and she's I graded 40 essays. And I'm like, I went to Vegas, and there was a really cool rave. Like you need to be doing that, right? You need to be doing things for you are spending time with yourself. And so I have that hope for any teacher that's trying to figure out how to be a more connected person and it'd be better for their kids right is to stop practicing that self denial.

Jen Rafferty
Well, that's the whole thing. Because while yes, this self knowing and self love is for you. It is very much for the next generation that you are affecting and your impact is only as great as your ability to go within period.

Flint Huffman
Absolutely. And if I'm thinking about how often I'm in front of teenagers, they have 150 kids or something this year. They are looking at all the adults in their life for a model for how to live their own life later. And if all they see are adults who overwork themselves and don't ever put themselves first we're dooming them to continue that cycle. It's one of the reasons why representation is important, right? I can be a happy trans person in front of them, they're like, damn, I can be who I am to. That doesn't mean being trans, just means being authentic to who they are. And they get that representation. And they know that they can be that person as they get older.

Jen Rafferty
That representation of authenticity. Yeah, I think is the bottom line. That's it.

Jen Rafferty
You know, I want to really quickly say posting something and liking someone's reel, as much as that feels sometimes like performative allyship from the perspective of someone who has an threatened community right now, it actually does a lot, when I'm at an absolute low, right? When there's been some horrible threat, or someone online says something really hateful about my identity, or about my relationship to my job, or to kids, having a wall of voices say that's not true. You are loved and accepted, that does everything. So sometimes, even though it feels like the minimum, and it feels performative, it does something. And in this case, it's really helpful to repost it, what you should do generally, is to amplify the voices that already exist. So if you follow trans content creators that doesn't have to be me, it could be me, but...

Jen Rafferty
So let's talk a little bit about advocacy and allyship. Because that's another big piece of this, you know, with all of the noise. And I think, you know, I heard what you said is, that hateful rhetoric might be at an all time low, but it is loud. And how do we create places and conversations for people to intentionally and productively advocate and to be helpful allies in a really meaningful and that just like, post something and like, like someone's Instagram, reel. Like, how does allyship matter?

Flint Huffman
Yeah.

Jen Rafferty
...this is definitely you, everyone needs to follow you, becuse you're great!

Flint Huffman
That's just fine, just fine. If you're following trans creators, right, and this is true for any marginalized group, follow more black creators, follow Jewish creative, follow as many people as you can, who represent voices other than your own and amplify them, when they're talking about their experiences. Even though that feels minimal, that's hugely important. Showing up for the people in your life who needs you to be there. I think recently, I talked about this experience where I had a couple of male colleagues in there like late 60s. And so they're still learning a whole lot about what it means to be trans. But we were having dinner together. And I mentioned this was a couple of months ago when I wasn't quite passing, which means that I couldn't quite tell like what gender people thought I was, when they looked at me, that sort of middle weird puberty stage of taking testosterone. And I was really nervous about going to the men's room because I couldn't do the women's anymore. I was nervous about going to the men's room. And I mentioned that one thing I miss about girl hood, is how we all used to go to the bathroom together. And it was really nice. And so when I said that, and I got up, they like peeing with me. And it was really sweet. And it was this moment of non performative allyship, where they heard and need, which was I feel a little unsafe right now. And they just did it. Right, they just got up and went with me. That's what we're looking for, Right? We're looking for those small moments where you can show up, take on that argument over Christmas with your family members that are super hateful, so that some trans person doesn't have to later challenge it. Repost stuff from people who have experienced things different than you and go to the bathroom with a trans friend, if they look freaked out.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, you know, and I'm glad that you said that. I agree. I think that the social media space use in that way can be powerful. And I do appreciate that perspective. I think something else that you had shared, right there is, even as you're talking about that story with your colleagues, you know, replacing that judgment with curiosity, like if you don't know, ask, how do you go about sharing that with people? How do you go about, just sharing the message of curiosity? You know, if you're feeling that there's something that you perceiving as an obstacle or is coming across as judgment? How can we replace that with curiosity? Is that curiosity welcomed?

Flint Huffman
Yes, I think curiosity is welcomed. There's a difference, right? When you're leading with curiosity, and you're leading from love and curiosity, versus assuming that someone is at like a wax museum version of curiosity, right, where you're looking at them as an object rather than like a person. And so curiosity is always welcome. We are not encyclopedias, right. So we don't always have time everyone smile, I'll get some DM from someone to pay. I'm having an argument with my aunt. Can you write out a really great response to her about how terrible her opinion is? And I was like, No, that's on you. Like you can do the research, you can figure it out. But if you see something out in the world, or if you're having an experience with a trans person, and you are genuinely curious about their experience, you can always ask, Hey, I'm totally okay if you're not comfortable answering this, but I was curious about XYZ. And generally, you got to think if you would ask a not trans person about it, and not feel weird, then you can probably ask a trans person. There's some things a little bit more invasive, right? Most trans people don't love being asked about surgery, or about genitalia. That's the kind of thing I wouldn't ask my mom, so maybe don't ask us. But yeah, I think in general curiosity is great. It's the only way we get to know each other better.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, I think going back to what we were saying before about safe spaces, you know, cultivating a space where honest human connection through curiosity is cultivated, is really important for that connection to each other.

Flint Huffman
Absolutely, and I'm speaking at a university tomorrow, I'm giving them a presentation. Im actually talking to the sororities and fraternities at this university about how to create safe spaces as they are recruiting specifically for trans people. So I love that, that's a great way to inspire create curiosity. But at the very end, I have a q&a section that, Hey, if you've ever been too nervous to ask a question, this is the time so when someone is offering the opportunity is welcoming questions, tells you ahead of time they want those questions, then I say take that opportunity when it comes grab it.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, it's so important. Because when we know more, we do better. And that's yeah, that's how this all works. So I have one last question. Before we kind of close out this interview here. When it comes to advocacy on the policy level, what can we do? What are just a couple of really easy things that we can walk towards, and be really intentional with our actions?

Flint Huffman
My thought on where you should be focusing your policy attention, like all politics are local, right? So the more that you can do things at the local level, because trans stuff is happening at the local level, right now, you have a school board, that is trying to decide if they should do a forced outing policy for their trans students, that's everywhere. My school district was dealing with it to other districts in my county, we're dealing with it, or are they trying to decide what their library book selection should look like, or whether or not teachers can share their pronouns in school, it is absolutely a hot button topic. And it's happening at your district, regardless of whether or not it's on the agenda, your next school board meeting, they are talking about it. So choosing to go to a school board meeting, and register a public comment to stand up in front of your community, and voiced support for queer teachers and students. That's where I would start, if you're trying to decide how to make direct action, because you might feel like a drop in the bucket when you're writing to a Congress member about some giant bill in a district of 100,000 people. But if you're in a community, if you've got 1000 voters that are all doing school board work, then going and talking to the school board can do a lot. So I would start there and then work your way up. Write letters to people, who are your representatives, tell them that you care about the trans community and about education, right, write them letters, some poor intern is going through those letters, but they're counting them. They're counting them, and they're telling your representative, how the people feel about it. And they're gonna think about that before the next election.

Jen Rafferty
Yeah, that's great advice. And it's really easy to become complacent when it comes to things like local politics, particularly school boards, unless something's on fire. And then everyone goes, because that's when the whole performance is. But the real work happens in between those times when they're having those conversations. And, and not a lot of people are there.

Flint Huffman
Oh, yeah, that's your place. That's where you gotta go cook, right? You go in, and there's 14 people and they're sitting in those terrible folding chairs. And it's 11pm. That's when you get up and you make your big statement. And use those full two minutes, baby, wait until that buzzer cuts you off.

Jen Rafferty
It's right. Yes. So I asked now the question that I am asking everybody on this podcast, which is what is your dream for the future of education?

Flint Huffman
I have so many feelings about this. I used to have a little speech that I told my students. Do you ever knew, what was it Betsy DeVos was?

Jen Rafferty
Oh yes.

Flint Huffman
It has to be right, The Department of Education. So I used to remember, I told him I students about her. And I was like if I got her in a chair in front of me, and I got 15 minutes alone. The first thing I would do is I would try to steer her away from Universal standardized testing, and then we will work on everything else. So I think that I feel differently about that now. I think that the longer that I've been in Human Rights Advocacy and Education, my vision for public education is that it stays public. That's my first thought. We are seeing like the slow creeping of private and charter education that is slowly privatizing a system that needs to be accessible for all of our students. The second we submit to stratifying our educational system so that students who come from higher socio-economic worlds, get a better and better education, we are going to be slowly disintegrating the fabric that weaves our country together. And so I think the more that we can empower public education, that's my vision. That's what I want. And I also strong union representation for teachers when we work together, we work collectively. We are stronger, we're stronger and we can support each other. There is no one who has a better support for a teacher than another teacher. And I think having union representation, whether the national, state, local, we all deserve it, we all need it, we all need to be involved in it.

Jen Rafferty
I love that. And I really do believe that the more we share our dreams out loud, the closer they become a reality. So thank you for sharing,

Flint Huffman
Manifesting.

Jen Rafferty
That's it. So before you go ahead and carry on with the rest of your evening, I would love for you to share with our listeners how they can get in touch with you, if they want to learn more about you and the awesome work that you do.

Flint Huffman
Absolutely. Thank you so much for one more chance to plug so you can find me @justflintisfine, I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, those are the places you can reach out to me. And so I'm really excited to for what happens next. So I won't be in teaching, but I'm going to continue to be an education for as long as I can.

Jen Rafferty
I'm excited to see what happens next for you too. And all of those links are going to be in the show notes to make it really easy for people to just click and follow you right away. And they really encourage that you do, Flint stuff is really informative, and inspiring, and funny and ridiculous and exciting. And I'm excited for you in this next chapter.

Flint Huffman
Thank you so much.

Flint Huffman
Yeah, and thank you for coming on. I really appreciate your time and your talents. So if you enjoyed today's episode, please make sure you subscribe, give it a five star review and share it with a friend and we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

How the Feldenkrais Method remarkably transforms learning and wellness with Carol McAmis

Ready to explore a holistic approach to movement and learning?

In today’s episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Carol McAmis, an expert in the Feldenkrais Method.

Carol shared her personal journey and the transformative power of Feldenkrais, a method that emphasizes body awareness and learning through movement.

We explored how this approach has revolutionized wellness worldwide and discussed the powerful connection between the body and mindset work

She emphasized the importance of slowing down and being present, and how flexible thinking can impact our learning process.

Join us for an episode that's sure to change the way you think about movement, learning, and the potential within us all.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Carol:

Carol McAmis earned the Master of Music in Vocal Performance degree from the University of Kansas in 1974 and the Bachelor of Music in Piano Performance, Minor: Vocal Performance degree in 1972, University of Kansas. She became a Guild Certified Feldenkrais Teacher® in 1991. Prior to joining the faculty at Ithaca College, Carol taught at Manchester College in Indiana (1974-1979).

At Ithaca College, Carol taught Voice, Vocal Pedagogy, and Feldenkrais® for Musicians. For sixteen years, she was a core faculty member of IC’s seminal Healthy Musician Workshop, a major influence in establishing musician’s wellness programs in colleges and conservatories around the world.

A trailblazer in understanding the living body as a musical instrument, Carol developed a holistic approach to vocal pedagogy, The MultiDimensional Singer, combining traditional vocal pedagogy with voice science, Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement® lessons, and other cross-disciplinary modalities. The Ithaca College Feldenkrais for Musicians course that she developed in 1991 was one of the first offered for college credit in the nation. She has presented workshops both nationally and internationally, introducing the Feldenkrais Method® for such groups as The Feldenkrais Guild of North America®, the National Association of Teachers of Singing, the New York State School Music Association, the University of Minnesota, and the Irish World Music Center in Limerick. She is the creator of “The Singer’s PlayBoxtm” an innovative approach to teaching and learning singing.

Her students are active performers, working in many genres from the Metropolitan Opera to Broadway to the vocal jazz innovators, New York Voices to cabaret and world music. Many of her students are successful public school and university teachers, and others are composers, conductors, and administrators. She is honored to have taught so many fine musicians at Ithaca College.

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:00
I am thrilled to share this conversation with you today because I had the pleasure of talking with Carol McAmis is one of my former professors from Ithaca College, and now dear friend, and fellow Neuroscience nerd. Carol is a treasure of information and wisdom, and has truly been an inspiration to me as I still continue to learn from her. Today, Carol shares her personal journey and the transformative power of Feldenkrais. Which is a method that emphasizes body awareness and learning through movement. We explored how this approach has revolutionized wellness worldwide, and discuss the powerful connection between the body and mindset work. Today, we stress the importance of slowing down and being present, and how flexible thinking can really impact our learning process. And if you are really ready to thrive at school, head on over to empowerededucator.com/thrive to access some of the best professional development you have ever received. Empowered Educator is changing the landscape of social emotional learning by focusing on the adults in schools. After all, the well being of a school is dependent on the well being of its educators. So it's time to stop surviving and start thriving. Our next cohort begins January first. So grab your spot now at empowerededucator.com/thrive

Jen Rafferty 01:33
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning, sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those fillings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host, Jen Rafferty, former Music Teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and Founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are. In this season., we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 02:13
Hello, and welcome back for another episode of Take Notes. I cannot wait to share my guest with you today because she is someone who I've known for a very long time, almost 20 years now. And I met Carol McAmis at Ithaca College where I went to college and she taught Voice and Vocal Pedagogy and Feldenkrais for musicians. And for 16 years, she was a core faculty member of Ithaca College's Seminal Healthy Musician Workshop, a major influence in establishing musicians, wellness programs and colleges and conservatories around the world. And the Ithaca College Feldenkrais for musicians course that she developed in 1991 was actually one of the first offered for college credit in the nation. She has presented workshops both nationally and internationally introducing the Feldenkrais Method for such groups as the Feldenkrais Guild of North America, the National Association of Teachers of Singing, the New York State School Music Association, the University of Minnesota, and the Irish World Music Center in Limerick. Carol, thank you so much for being here.

Carol McAmis 03:23
Hi, Jen. It's always wonderful to sit down and have a chat with you and have a chance to expand our chat to your wonderful embodied educators community is just a real honor. I'm so glad to be here.

Jen Rafferty 03:38
Thank you. And, you know, Carol has been instrumental actually to the growth of Empowered Educator because at the very beginning, and I have to share this the very beginning, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I knew I didn't want to, to stay in the classroom anymore. And I wasn't sure what to do. And a couple of weeks before Empowered Educator became a fully formed idea, you and I had a very meaningful, that it was a face to face, but it was on Zoom. And you were really instrumental in helping me understand what that vision was. So I feel very full circle moment right now.

Carol McAmis 04:11
It is definitely a full circle moment. And that was such an exciting day for me to watch you light up and go, Oh, wait, I'm not going back in the classroom because I'm gonna change education. And that was such a wonderful, celebratory moment for both of us for you to take the torch and take it out into the world the way that you do really beautiful.

Jen Rafferty 04:31
Thank you. And I love that we get to continue having these conversations and now we get to do this in front of everybody. And so, I want to start with first and foremost, what is Feldenkrais? And particularly why is it important for everybody and whether or not you're a musician or not a musician? What is it and why should we care about it?

Carol McAmis 04:50
Well, the Feldenkrais Method is actually named for the gentleman who developed the work to begin with Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, who was a man of all talents. Oh gosh, he was a Mechanical Engineer and Scientist. He studied at the Sorbonne and worked at the Curie Institute, back in the days when they were doing research on Artificial Halflife of Radiation, so he built a lot of the machines that used to test their theory so on. He also helped develop sonar, during World War Two. He was the first or one of the first black belts in Judo in Europe, and was the Founder of the Judo Clubs of France. So we have this movement component as part of his life going forward, from the time he was a young man, he was an avid sportsman, he's, Oh, gosh, just a brilliant teacher, he worked with learning disabled students actually, what's his first job.So that how we learn and how we grow as human beings was always a central part of his work that he developed for himself. So he hadn't typically had a knee injury, like many wounded healers go on to do amazing work in the world, because they have to heal themselves first. So he wrecked his knee back in the 19, late 30s, early 40s, I'm not exactly sure the date, and the surgery at the time was 50-50 we can help you. Otherwise, you're going to be in a wheelchair for the rest of your life. Well, that wasn't good enough for him. So he went home, he did a lot of experimenting for what he knew about movement, his wife was a pediatrician. Which he got interested in how babies learn to walk and talk in the first place. When there's no rulebook, there's no red pen, there's no report that have to be sent home to the parent, they just feel their way, they sent their way into how to move. And if you have a remotely nervous system, you're going to learn how to do that truth. So it's the most successful learning that any of us do in our lives. And without having to be taught, we choose for ourselves. And so he figured it out, that it's basically just a matter of trial and error. The baby's playing around. I watched my cousin's grandkids go through the process, so we've all watched her children go through the process of they throw an arm around and a leg around, it looks like they're just flinging their their bodies around, and then all of a sudden, it starts to get more intentional. And then next thing you know, they're reaching, they're rolling over, and surprise, they're rolling up to sit.

Carol McAmis 07:32
And so this component of surprise in learning is very much built into the ongoing work that we do in the Feldenkrais Method. So the idea is that most of us, you know, by the time we get to be 4-5-6-7, and we're in preschool in school, you're starting to have social learning attached to it. And that's important, we have to learn how to function in our lives with other people, no question about it, we have to learn how certain things work like reading and maths and different things like that. But prior to that there was nonverbal learning, there was just feeling your way into it, and Oh, if I push on lighter fluid, and there won't even be language for it, all of a sudden, Whoa, that kind of fun kind of roll a little that feels good. Oh, let me try that to the other side. And then pretty soon babies push themselves into rolling to the side. And what he figured out, is that we really don't need to stop that when we start our academic real world, outside world is a better word outside world education, that we can keep doing this throughout our lives. And we can come back to it at any point during our lives, and work in a very simple, structured kind of framework and continue to improve or to retrain things that we may have lost because of injury or surgery or something like that. So the range of the application for the Feldenkrais Method as broad as humanity, really. So I come to the work myself because I'm a singer, and I live inside with my instrument, I was also very unathletic child, and lots of unfortunate and unhappy experiences around gym class. I'll laugh. So when I switched from being a pianist to being a singer, I was like, I need to know something about how to maintain this instrument and back in the 1970s and 80s, early 80s, when I started really getting curious about this instrument that I live in, there wasn't a lot of information about how to change something. So here I am, I'm out of shape, I know I need to get in shape. I go to gym class, I get shin splints from the aerobics that I tried dance things and I felt like I had three left feet. I don't really but I thought I did at the time. So eventually I read about the Feldenkrais Method and it was all this lovely stuff about lie on the floor, and you're going to do small, gentle movements, the teacher guides you through it, they don't come around and correct you. This is the most liberating thing for a teacher is to know that you are not responsible for fixing anybody, they are responsible for fixing themselves.

Carol McAmis 07:33
Can you just say that one more time for people in the back?

Carol McAmis 10:16
Yeah, this is one of the most liberating things for a teacher to understand is that, you're not the one that's fixing them, they need the tools to fix themselves, and this method does that. So that you learn in your bones, how you move better, you learn in your bones, where you're blocking yourself from moving well, wherever you're tense, Delta chorus calls it parasitic, muscular involvement with these little claws hooking in and out, you don't even know that you are doing some of these things. So it will take a little exercise break. Sure, for a second, everybody interlace your fingers, get your hands together and lace your fingers, notice which thumb is on the top. And now unless your fingers and realize them with the other thumb on the top. What are your findings Jen?

Jen Rafferty 11:16
It is uncomfortable.

Carol McAmis 11:17
It's uncomfortable. Most people will say that, unless you're ambidextrous, or I played piano since I was four years old, it still feels off balance for me. And we must have these types of habits, in order to function in the world. If we had to stop and think about where every finger went, every time we interlace our fingers like that, and then change it over. It would take I don't know how many minutes to describe everything that's going on in the move. But so we do slow down move. But when we do a Feldenkrais lesson, Nice, take her time, give your brain time to process the information. And then once you've done that, and then you do a lot of different variations on that. So theme and variations from musicians is often a way to think about it. So if I'm doing a lesson around her lacing my finger set the theme. And the first theme is the one that you're used to. So you do what you know, and then you start introducing variations. So we the first variation would be, you could put the other thumb on the top, Oh, that feels really off kilter. So then if I'm doing something to lift my head or something, and I do it with my fingers, and different organization, if new information, your brain is very happy, your brain is going, Oh, we're having a real conversation. It's been a long time since she was a baby. And we did this. And so to me, that's the most immediately apparent way to talk about the Feldenkrais Method is that it brings you back to the original conversation that you had with yourself around learning and enhance function in the world.

Jen Rafferty 12:53
We get so far away from that so quickly. And as you're speaking, and as a singer, myself, I have always been my instrument. However, everyone has their instrument, whether you use it for singing or not, our body is how we are able to do the things in this world. And so talk a lot about mindset, but unless you're bringing your body along for the ride, you can only get so far at and you really can't even get close to your potential, if you are not addressing the fundamental movements and how you operate in this by going around this world in your body. So I feel like as soon as even before kids start to walk, there is this, you're not doing it right, or you're doing it this way. Or there are rules or the red pins, or the expectations and obligations that you were explaining before, and we kind of shape shift for other people and or societal things, and in doing so we get further and further away from who we are as human beings in this body. So this seemed to be a really natural journey for you to kind of come to this work. But for someone who has flowing down feels really scary. How do we even start that conversation with ourselves?

Carol McAmis 14:15
Oh, well, that's a great question. And I find that so much the last 10 or 15 years that I've been teaching the Awareness Through Movement, which is a group class lesson at Feldenkrais class in Ithaca College, I noticed it was getting harder and harder for the students to slow down. So a lot of times we would make a joke out of it, and just make it a more playful kind of experience to offer them the opportunity, especially a couple of years when I had a lot of people with emotional health, mental health issues, since you know, they haven't had a really nice experience with their bodies in a really long time. So let's be babies, so we went back to the floor, there's a wonderful little video of the baby Going through the steps of learning how to rollover and support herself on her elbow, that's adorable. And in between it has this like directions that you would use in a Feldenkrais class. So they got to see that connection. Everybody, Ooh, the baby's adorable. Oh, looky there isn't that fun? And we had not one meltdown. In the entire seven weeks to the class, nobody melted down. They were just like, Oh, wait, this is real. Oh, this is really interesting. And just last week, I had a new young lady come in, she's a tuned freshman in college. And she came into a little series I'm teaching right now, I got this wonderful email, then that sticks. I haven't felt this calm and relaxed, I don't think ever, this is amazing. And I'm standing up straight on my voice t shirt could see that I was holding my body differently. One hour, one class, amazing. Now, is that gonna stick unless she keeps going? Probably not. But she has a taste of something different. Another option.

Jen Rafferty 16:02
Yes. And that's what it is, right? It's these other options. We go along with our lives and autopilot and just defaults, right? Just kind of moving back and forth from the last thing that happens to us. And we don't stop to realize that we have agency in what's happening to us, with us, internally with our internal environments. And unless we take the time to be intentional about it, we're going to miss that and not realize another possibility. And I'll say for me is someone who has done work with you before, and it truly feels like magic. But you have to kind of get to the point where you're letting go of these ideas of hustle and ideas of what productivity looks like that actually slowing down and going inside is probably the most productive thing you could do. Because what you're doing afterwards is going to be so much more effective.

Carol McAmis 16:58
Right? Yeah, exactly. And this business of taking the time to allow whatever experience you have the process, like he said, is super important, so really fun and informative for me. A sign that I started to do with my classes was to say, Okay, you're going to go into practice room, we're going to practice for five minutes, and then you're going to put the horn down, you're going to stop singing, and you're going to sit there for 30 seconds. And then you can practice for another five minutes. Well, I got all kinds of pushback about that very thing about not being productive. Unless I'm absolutely doing something constantly, while I'm in the practice room, I'm not wasting my time to do this thing, I just couldn't possibly. And then by the end of a week of doing that, they're going oh, wait a minute, I'm not as frustrated when I left the practice room. Because I was like, What is that took me in because I hadn't really considered that I just kind of do that now. And realize that the brain needs time to process the new information. It does not need a long time necessarily, to process a new piece of movement information. 15 to 30 seconds is often plenty, but they were not frustrated because the brain was having that absorption time. So it wasn't like there's so much to stuff and so much to process. And I think that's something that relatively easy to work into a lot of situations. When I was teaching my vocal pedagogy course, we would either take a break and tell a story or try out an exercise or something where there's variety, the brain loves novel stimulation. And so that's another component of working this way with the Feldenkrais work.

Jen Rafferty 18:49
Yeah. So it's kind of two-fold for teachers to you know, I'm thinking of a scenario, you're sitting at your computer, lesson planning, grading papers, work for 5-10 minutes, and then just take a 32nd break, you know, and then you show up for the next chunk of that. Truly a different person, right. And then, of course, the implications that you have teaching your students understanding this, you know, I think brain breaks are pretty common now stretching and I don't know if if teachers utilize them as often as they could. But here, I think we give some weight to what this actually is. This isn't just something that's fun or silly. This is actually helping propel the learning process.

Carol McAmis 19:29
Yes, exactly. And again, it doesn't have to be a really long, kind of thing. Do we have time to do a little short? Exploration?

Jen Rafferty 19:38
Yeah, I would be surprised if you didn't throw one of those in. Let's do that. Yeah.

Carol McAmis 19:43
Okay. So everybody who's listening come to a place if you're driving the car, do not do this right now, please, because you need to have her attention on the roads. But when you get home, you can try this out if you're listening. So come to a place where you're studying and just gather yourself, inside your skin, to yourself sitting in the chair. Get in touch with your breathing, light, easy thought, breathing. And now just very slowly and gently with your eyes closed, tilt your head back. As far as it's comfortable. This is not about range of motion or stretching or anything, it's just what's comfortable. And when you get there, stop and open your eyes and just notice what you see on the ceiling. And remember that that's your little checkpoint, we'll come back to that. Okay, so you can come forward. Yeah, now we're going to just very, slowly nod your head a little, and back to where you started. And when you get back to where you started, take a little like two or three second pause. So your brains picking up that one piece of information, this is where we're starting. Okay, then now you're gonna do the same thing again. And notice you inhale or exhale is your head tilts fat, and then bring it forward again, and take a little pause. And then on purpose, we're doing this kind of the short version, but we're going to, you can expand this as much as you like. So this time as you go back or do the opposite. If you inhaled before this time, exhale, when you take your head back, just notice what's different. There's no right, there's no wrong, it's just noticing, learning to be your own observer, good. And just that a couple of times that opposite breathing as you take your head down. Yeah, nice. Okay, and then come back to the neutral position and the center. Or we're gonna just give ourselves a few seconds, pause here. And now this time with your eyes open, look in the direction you're taking your head, as you tilt your head back. Did you notice you might have moved faster? Was your eyes open? Yeah, it's our habit. Let's see what else is out there, take a look? Good, so come back to the neutral and see if you can go just this slowly with your eyes open as you did with your eyes closed. Yeah, take your time. And you come back to a neutral. Then, did you notice what you were doing with your breathing? Or were you just interested in speed? If you're just interested in the speed, it's not wrong, that's the new piece of information that you hadn't played with before. So now let'see, if you check your head back at that new tempo of of the slower head, do your inhale or exhale spontaneously when you go back? And then what happens as you bring your head forward again? So we're just giving your brain a chance to check out different options and alternatives? For how to do something. Some of these feel like a planned mistake. So here you go. Are you ready?

Jen Rafferty 22:47
Oh, I was so ready. I'm in this. I don't know about anyone else. But I'd be really happy.

Carol McAmis 22:52
We're having a good time. Okay, that's cool, well done. All right. As you bring your head back, instead of looking up in the direction, boy, you're gonna look down toward your cheekbones. And then when you come back to the center, look up toward your eyebrows. Oh, boy. Good., and try that a few times. Because this is absolutely something we almost never would do spontaneously. I mean, we might, if you were playing around, sometimes, but yeah, it's not so easy. Some of you are probably going out here and in the listening audience, and that's okay. It's such new information, your brain is happy to have it done very imperfectly. Mistakes are how we get better. Right?

Carol McAmis 23:23
Or how we get better, they are not how we are wrong. And to go to that place in our own body and say, I'm not wrong, this is just more work than I wanted to do, or whatever, or your brain is doing that for you. So now go back, close your eyes. And now tilt your head back. Are you sitting the same way you were at the beginning? And when you get as far as you can go easily open your eyes, and see if you see further along the ceiling than you did before?

Jen Rafferty 23:23
Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 24:16
Oh, definitely.

Carol McAmis 24:17
Definitely. Right. I imagine most people would say yes to that. And that's how we learned as babies. That is our true learning nature.

Jen Rafferty 24:30
Trial and error.

Carol McAmis 24:31
Trial and error. You know, a fancy name for it from the sciences, this the stochastic process, which says you have a filter, in if our tissue and somebody's singing, you could be breathing. And then I have random elements such as look at an anatomy book, or actually start to notice that you lift your shoulders every time you inhale, or when we breathe with different feelings in our bodies. If we're happy, sad and angry, we're going to inhale differently. So those are all different options that you can pull out and play with, with a singer and then put them back into the song and just have them sing the song and they will be changed, they will be singing their song from a much more embodied, full present place than they were before.

Jen Rafferty 25:20
Well, because you're in your body.

Carol McAmis 25:22
Yes, exactly. You're also in your present moment mind. And in your experience of the now not worrying about will they like me or worrying about is this good enough. Or the last time I've stood up and sang in the school assembly, I did something that embarrassed me, and I'm still remembering that. None of those things, you come into the present moment. And that's where the true learning happens.

Jen Rafferty 25:46
And even something as simple as doing a breathing exercise or doing something like you just walked us through on a smaller scale, can bring you back into your body before, maybe you have a difficult conversation with your administrator. Or if you're administering a test to your students, if you were to just pause and take a minute to give them the opportunity to get into their body, how much better they perform.

Carol McAmis 26:12
Right? Exactly. Exactly.

Jen Rafferty 26:15
That's huge for the students who then the I'm just thinking the implications of this too, you know, contributing to the story is that they form about themselves in the beliefs about themselves of what they can and cannot do, what they're capable of and not capable of, you know, really, it could be as simple as just getting into your body for a minute. So you can really show up as your best self. And how would that change the story?

Carol McAmis 26:37
Yep, exactly. It totally changes everything about the story. And when you work with your body first, we're typically most of us. And, you know, I had to outgrow all of this myself. Of course, we've seen we're being run by something else. I don't know what we think that something else is, but like our emotions are not our hours to control, they just come over us. We don't know how to work with them so that we can be more productive and more effective in our own lives, and happier in our own lives, more comfortable in our own lives. We don't know that the way that we're moving is not what we're stuck with on now we are klutzy child, for real. If patient chose tripping all the time, you know, play a game and good knees, to couldn't turn a cartwheel to save my life, and I still can't turn a cartwheel. But I could theoretically keep working on it. You know, I do have the skill set. I know how I just don't choose to spend my days doing that. But yeah, and a lot of steps that we skipped over as children in motor learning, like I was one that didn't call very much. And I was too big on hurry. I just called for a little bit and I was up and walking and getting on with life, like nine months or something crazy like that. And along the way, I had a lot of problems with rhythm with being a musician and I don't think anybody outside of me really understood that because I was winning competitions when I was a kid, you know, playing in recitals and majoring in piano in college and things like that. But inside myself, I always felt a little bit like fake like there was a strong internal pulse that was there consistently. And once you did the first summer of Feldenkrais training, you go through the whole developmental movement, exploration from rolling your eyes and sucking to turning your head to reaching and rolling, and then coming up to sit, crawl, go through all the different aspects of crawling, and eventually coming up to standing and walking. And somewhere in the middle of all of that, some very deep crawling patterns wired in, that I had missed, like I was still doing a lot of homolateral arm swinging, so I would swing right-arm or right-leg, left-arm, left-leg, and I had not really developed a cross crawl pattern because I didn't do it for very long. And when that crossed all wired in, then my internal pulse started to be more, much more reliable. And then the more work I did like this over the three and a half years of our training, the more solid I excelled in my rhythmic choices.

Jen Rafferty 29:23
This is blowing my mind.

Carol McAmis 29:27
Oh my god, I'm still doing that.

Jen Rafferty 29:30
It always amazes me that there is just so much we don't know. And there is so much we don't see. And if we really just took the time to slow down and ask the questions that matter, and by that I mean going internally, right, that reflection, that self-discovery in all of the ways that's truly the way to unlock your limitlessness for lack of a better word you know, and that amazes me. I'm so taken by that.

Carol McAmis 30:03
Yeah, well, that was really fun. When I was going through my training, several, the women actually had babies, and they would bring them to our segment of training. And the next thing you know, somebody's got a baby next to them on the floor. And I'll never forget, one of the men was doing this lesson, and it was your lying on your back and your roll backwards and throw your feet over your head. And there's this darling little baby was about six weeks old, she was even six months, she was still little bitty, and there she was, with her head turn to the side, and she was watching everything Frank's doing. And the next thing, you know, they're the little feet are going up in the air. And she's starting to do it with him, Oh, my gosh, she's just precious. And we've the all of the babies would take class with us, and just instinctively be doing what we were struggling hard to learn how to do ourselves. And by the end of four years, they were big enough, they were grabbing rollers and putting people on the table and putting the rollers in the right place and starting to give them movement lessons on the table.

Jen Rafferty 31:02
Were the experts in that scenario, where they?

Carol McAmis 31:05
Literally they were, every once in a while our trainer would say show, Everybody quietly lift your head and look over here at what the baby is doing right now, you know, and we learned so much from having all our little teachers in the room with us. It's just fabulous.

Jen Rafferty 31:21
I do want to talk about one thing, which I think is important regarding this, because it's so new and different is judgment, that I think a lot of the obstacle that people face to do something like this has to do with judgment. So this is something that you've experienced with the people that you've worked with. How do you approach that?

Carol McAmis 31:43
Well, there are a couple of different things that I guess are can go to things for me. One is that Dr. Feldenkrais talked a lot about how we do not train the observer, the disengaged part of ourselves, that is the witness to whatever we're doing with our movement, or with a piece of academic learning of some kind or other, that we don't teach our children, how to go from their internal awareness to the which is so brilliant when they're babies, you know, they're just little neuroplastic geniuses, they really are. And to go from that, to handing it over, and being told by the teacher, you don't know anything, and I have the answers. And you have to figure out what my answers are, and then give them back to the audio tests. And then you'll know you've learned something, there's something really backwards about that an unnatural for us about that. And that's not to say they don't need to learn objective kind of things like what A and B are, and C and D. But it's more about how they respond to it. I don't know if you've ever run a cause John's Holtsville Cow Children Sale, written that pretty much when I was in college, like around 1972, for something like that. And he was a math teacher. And he got curious about why some of the kids did well in math, and some of the kids did not do well in math. And so he started watching. And we realized that the ones that did not do well had no tolerance for uncertainty, not knowing the answer, they would say anything to get out of the hot seat. So there's that experience of internal judgment. Or it would be that they didn't know how to take time to talk it through for themselves. They didn't know how to do that, and this work is kind of brilliant.

Carol McAmis 33:45
Like this middle schoolers, love Feldenkrais work, they love it. There they are, they're going through all these humongous changes in their hormones in their bodies, you know, their social relationship, that everything is changing on them so fast. And when you give them a little space to slow down, and just get quiet with themselves and pay attention without any evaluation attached to it, then they start to take a little bit more ownership and be a little bit more objective, you know, and some of it is brain maturity, they have to wait for a certain amount of time that I find with my college students who are totally indoctrinated into judgment. By the time they got to college, that they've been evaluated since they were three, most of them when they went to preschool, and they're always worrying about whether they're right or not. And to come into a classroom where the teacher looks at you and says, your answer is the right answer, is astonishing to them. They don't know that and to find places in your day where the red pen is necessary, and find places to In the day, whether it's in the arts, or it's in sports, or how do I take what I can get them to do and own, when they are in the arts, and they're creating their own song, their own poem, and I turn them loose, and they don't have rules, well let's see what comes up to give a space somewhere in their day where they're not evaluated or being reported on to mom and dad. Well, I think that's super, super important. So my latest Class series that I'm just winding up now is called Flexible Brain Plus Flexible Body Equals Flexible Learning. So it's very simple. You break it down, and you say, this is inflexible thinking, I have to get a perfect, Im no good. This sucks, this favorite college student expression, you know, so much acumen, okay., my song sounds terrible. All of those kinds of language are inflexible. And they're fear based or anger base, you can be angry with yourself, and beating yourself up. There's a lot of shame involved in it. And when that happens, what happens to your body? If you're ashamed of something, everybody try being in an ashamed position? And then try being anxious? What happens to you when you're anxious, you get body gets really stiff, right? Shame, it bends over, you know, Charlie Brown when he's having a bad day. So he's bent over with his head forward, right?

Jen Rafferty 36:25
Yeah,

Carol McAmis 36:26
I think there's even a cartoon where he's telling his little sister, it's like, Why you walking like that? He said, because you can't really get a good bad day going unless you're hunched over like that.

Jen Rafferty 36:38
That's not true.

Carol McAmis 36:39
It's so true. So all of that kind of thinking is going to translate into tension holding, and discomfort and eventually pain in the physical body. And then you try to learn on that, and you're stuck, you're really stuck. And especially if you're a kid, who's a highly kinesthetic learner, and you have to sit in the desk all day. No, we all know about these things now, but to really think about the implications of it, for the kid, for that child's brain. What I found with the learning styles with my singers is when I start using the language, that their preferred style, they sing better immediately, it's like they warmed up and their voices lined up and it resonant, and it's clear. If I tell them to do something like thing from your left elbow, and they're highly visual people, it's kind of like they get tied up in knots and strangle. They can't sing. It's amazing so much. So all of these ways that we know about how people process information about how we talk to ourselves, all of that translates into difficulty, on the other hand, flexible thinking is, Oh, let's see, that was kind of sloppy there. How did I do that? How did I make it sloppy, so I can change it. And you've got to learn to work with the mistake to figure out, can I do that on purpose? Do it wrong. So like somebody's playing the piano, and they hit a wrong note over and over and over again, they have either a special issue or the timing issue of something, and so everyone ask if its too high or too low with that note. Oh, really I don't know. And then you give them something to pay attention to. You give that rational processing mind something to do that effective job instead of standing over there and going well, there she goes again, it still wasn't perfect.

Carol McAmis 38:37
So there's a whole lot of conversations, it's really fun to have conversations with those different parts of yourself. So once you get used to the fact that excellent is better than perfect, that you don't have to do it right. You just have to do it differently. Should make a t shirt. This is one of our favorite sayings from Dr.Feldenkrais, Don't do it right, do it differently. How many options of ways to do that? How many ways can you make twoplus two before you can make it different colors? One Number Green and one yellow and becomes purple on the end or whatever. And you learned a little color theory along the way, what the heck is that? And play is essential. Play is essential. Babies are just wiggling around, it's kind of good to roll this way. That's kind of fun. I remember playing with buzzing in a piece of tissue paper on a comb when I was a kid. And that's translated in this an interesting teaching voice technique that's gone along through my life and certainly funny. So you never know. But the more the brain has pleasure attached to it, and that doesn't have to, that didn't mean that we're only having fun. It means the pleasure of success. It means the pleasure of achieving something and turning a light on for skill that your brain was not previously aware of right doing something you never imagined that you could do. So you lead people, through all these different kinds of opportunities and experiences, the body is more relaxed, because your thinking is more in harmony with listening to what information is coming up from the body to the brain, which then responds, you want your brain to be responding and not to be the commander in chief, right? And so that's another important piece of this whole scale of learning process. So ultimately, your film Christ's methods is learning how to learn.

Jen Rafferty 40:39
Yes, and it's just a fundamental to everything that it is that we do. So we might have touched on this already. But I always ask everyone, what is your dream for the future of education, you know, keeping this work in the forefront and your perspective? What do you want?

Carol McAmis 40:53
What do I want for the future of education, I want teachers to understand this for themselves, first and foremost, and I love the work that you're doing, because you're helping them do that, that is just amazing. I want even more than that I want administrators to understand. I have colleagues who work in school systems in different coaching programs and things that I do, and they will not work with the children until they've worked with the administrators, and then the teachers, and then the parent, and then the children. So I would love to see a structure like that it has been done successfully in public schools around the country. And everybody's happier for it. Why not? And then we're not all fighting to be perfect all the time. And mistakes are terrible. So another thing I would love to educate our children on is that the mistake is where the learning edge is.

Jen Rafferty 41:53
Yes.

Carol McAmis 41:54
The mistake is where the learning edge is. And once you know what you're doing wrong, the problem is, like my students, like singers, all the time, they're constantly doing something and somebody says, You're all vowel is uh, not ah, for instance, and they don't know this another thing I learned from Feldenkrais, whatever you're doing is best that your brain and your nervous system and your heart and your soul know how to do in this body in this moment in time. If the very best even if the kid is screwing up like crazy in front of you. That's our best option. So my job as the teacher is to give them more options and to give them the tools to be like a scientist who says, Oh, what happens if I put an extra drop of this, and there's a kind of blow up in my face? Or is it gonna do the next Nobel Prize winning discovery? I don't know. It's open, it's open, and we're okay with that risky place. That risky place which leads us into having more resilient human beings.

Jen Rafferty 42:50
Well, I love that dream. Let's shout that one from the rooftops please. What? Yeah, So Carol, if people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, how can they get in touch with you?

Carol McAmis 43:01
The best way right now I'm sort of building a website right now. So the best way to get in touch with me is out my email address, which is multidimensionalsinger@gmail.com, and we'll put that in the information going forward with a video or the audio today. And as an offer for you to learn more about this wonderful work that I do, I have a couple of things for you. One is linked to a TV show that I did a few weeks ago, that introduces more of my other projects. That's based on the Feldenkrais work that's called The Singer SMA, which is using your voice, your sound and movement plus your imagination to take care of yourself. And that's a beautiful combination. I'm very excited about that. So there's a little mini-spa sampler that's sort of similar to what we just did today. But it's you got to go to the beach with this one. And that's really fun. So there's that, will give you a link for that, and then also have an introduction to working with the Feldenkrais Method and the voice. So that's sort of built on this flexible brain body and voice idea, and will give you a link to that video, as well. If you'd like to learn more.

Jen Rafferty 44:14
and Lastic we'll make sure everything gets in the program notes. And I just can't thank you enough for your time and sharing your talents with us today. This has been a blast.

Carol McAmis 44:22
Well, thank you for having me on. Just love this work. That has been my pleasure to teach for 35 years now. It was just really wonderful. And to see people like you who went through my program in college and spreading it all over the place out in the world. That's just beautiful work that you're doing. So glad to be part of it. Thank you.

Jen Rafferty 44:42
Yes, thank you. And if you liked today's episode, make sure you leave a five star review and we will see you next time on take notes.

Jen Rafferty 44:50
Incredible write. Together we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going and Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook

Can storytelling revolutionize classroom learning? An inspiring talk with Michael Katz

Can you recall a moment when a story deeply resonated with you and made you feel seen and heard?

Join us in today’s episode of Take Notes as we are joined by Michael Katz, a professional storyteller and educator. We dive into how storytelling can make a big difference in elementary education and help with mindfulness in schools.

Michael talks about his path to becoming a storyteller. He shows us how telling stories can grab the attention of young kids and help them learn. This episode is full of great ideas for anyone who wants to use storytelling in education, with tips on making stories fun and interactive for kids.

We discussed the importance of connecting with kids through stories. Michael shares his tips for teaching mindfulness with storytelling and how this can improve listening skills and help kids grow.

Curious to see how storytelling can transform learning? Listen in!

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Michael:
Michael Katz has been a profession storyteller for over 30 years, both as a performer and as a teacher of the craft. The work he loves the most is in elementary schools, while his public performance have been at such illustrious locations as the openings of the L.A. Getty Center and the Disney Concert Hall. HIs CD of stories "Far Away and Close to Home" was given a Parents Choice Silver Honor Award. In the last 15 years he has also been teaching mindfulness in elementary schools, primarily with K-2 students.

Connect with Michael:
Website: www.storytellermichael.com

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those fillings out the window. Welcome to Season 3 of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former Music Teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and Founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:44
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I am here with somebody who I met a few weeks ago actually at this point, and I was really taken by his message and the way that he delivers his message. And so today I am talking with the incredible Michael Katz, who has been a professional storyteller for over 30 years, both as a performer and as a teacher of the craft. And he works with mostly elementary schools. Now while his public performances have been at such illustrious locations as the openings of LA Getty Center, and the Disney Concert Hall, and a CD of stories Far Away and Close to Home, was given a Parent's Choice Silver Honor Award. And in the last 15 years, he has also been teaching mindfulness in elementary schools primarily with K to 2 students. And his storytelling is completely magnetic. And dare I say, entrancing, and I'm really excited to talk with him today. So Michael, thank you so much for being here on the show. I really appreciate your time and your talents. Thank you.

Michael Katz 01:50
It's a pleasure for me. Thank you for asking me.

Jen Rafferty 01:52
So I would love to dive in, and really understand why storytelling for you?

Michael Katz 02:00
Well, storytelling was something that found me, I knew I wanted to work with children in some capacity. And so this was after I, I think I knew I wanted to work with children when I was a kid myself, which is funny, but that was maybe because I like my teachers. Or, and I like being a kid. I liked being an elementary aged child. So I went to school of psychology, graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology, and I took a break when I was going to be going back to grad school, and that never happened. And what happened was, I took what I thought was gonna be one year off. And the short version is, like a friend of a friend of a friend was over at my place, someone I had never met before, and he saw a children's book on the coffee table, and he said, Do you like children's books? I said, Yeah. He said, Would you like to take over my radio show? I was, What? He said, Well, I've got this radio show, and I read stories on the radio, and I'm leaving town, and I don't want it to go off the air. It was a university radio station, KCSB-FM, at the University of California, Santa Barbara. And he said, If I don't find a replacement, they'll put on a rock show or something. I said, What do I do? He says he just read stories for 30 minutes. I said, Yes, sure. And we're getting paid just this fun little hobby, look at the thing I'm doing and then too long story for this show, but one door open to another door, to another door, you know, read in a bookstore, or go to try to get free books at a book convention. Hey, have you heard about the national Storytelling Festival in Tennessee, someone said, got on a plane and went there to check it out. Something just kept leading me forward. And you know, I guess is that saying yes. And took a year off. I just quit all my jobs. I said, I'm gonna try to make this work for a year. Here I am 30 years later, and I love it. It's incorporating all that I wanted to do. I get to be with kids. I was a class clown as a kid. So it brought back that part of me. I find storytellers-storytelling stories was a powerful way to communicate messages. It penetrates the mind in a way that just saying things doesn't. Or it's one of the poems that I love the dreamers awake, the dreamers awake, the shadow goes by when I tell you a tale The tale is a lie. But ponder it well for made in for youth. That tale is a lie. What it tells is the truth. And I find that stories convey the truth, maybe better than just saying it in one sentence. And then, there's no imaginary fourth wall between me and the audience. And so it really is interactive. And so it just combined all these aspects that I love that are part of me. And so it found me and it was is a really, it's been a really good fit. And when I'm able to teach storytelling to young people, and I'm teaching them the courage to stand up, how to put ideas into words, the power of outlines all these skills, finding your voice, I emphasize comprehension versus memorization. And so use your own voice, bring yourself to the story. And the growth I see in children who identify as being shy it by create a safe space where they're able to grow. And it's beautiful to watch and fun. And then ultimately, what led to the mindfulness teaching was I realized that the maybe the most powerful aspect of storytelling is the audience learning to listen, and also the performer listening to the audience.

Jen Rafferty 05:51
I love that, which is so interesting, you just went there, because I caught on to something you said earlier, which is aligned with what you just said, and I would like to start there. You said, storytelling breaks down the fourth wall. And you and I had a conversation about our shared performance background. And I love that we shared that that was a beautiful moment and great conversation that we had. And I think there is something to this breaking of the fourth wall, both literally and metaphorically for how we connect with one another and each other. So for those folks who don't have theater backgrounds, can you explain a little bit about what breaking the fourth wall means, and perhaps going a little bit into how you do that through storytelling and why that's important.

Michael Katz 06:41
Great question. In theater, well, all theater, performers are in the stage, the lights are off in the audience, there are lights on the actors, the actors interact with each other. And there are we say, the fourth wall, there are walls on you know, two walls on the side, the wall behind you. And then there's this imaginary wall between you and the audience. And the performance, don't look at the audience. They're looking at the other performers. And so we are, the audience is watching these performers. With storytelling, that imaginary fourthwall is gone. I always, sometimes I'll go into school auditorium, and they'll turn the lights off in the audience, I say, No, turn them on. We're all in this together, this is all shared. I want them to know that I can see them, and I will see them. And I will look directly at them at times as the narrator of the story. When I'm the character in the stories, then the characters interact with each other and create what I call the imaginary landscape of a story where kind of that magic of like houses one person creating this world with no props, no stage setup, just the chair and the body of the face and the voice. So that is what I mean by the imaginary fourth wall. And then one of my techniques that I use a lot is audience participation. And it'll be either call response, fill in the blank, it's a great technique, you just have to make sure that the audience knows what to say, you know, if I went once upon, and then I gesture with my hands out to the audience, if I say once upon a time, the audience will notice a time. But if I go once upon a time, there was a... he says no idea what to say. But as long as it's something that the audience exactly knows what to say, it works. And they'll say it without even you know, and adults will do it. It's very funny, sometimes adults, we do it more than the kids, because you just you've been invited in, you are invited into this story. So that's one of the techniques of audience participation. And the use of audience participation, also, it involves the audience more, so they're more engaged. It tells me if they're following me, it tells me what kind of listeners they want to be. And, you know, it's very important with audience participation, if you don't hear them participate back, that might mean they're not following you, they're maybe a little shy or resistant. So you have to feel that test those waters. Let them know that, No, we're all creating this together. And sometimes it just means they're not into it. So okay, I won't use audience participation they really want to watch and then I will drop the audience participation. But that's the part that I call the listening on the storytellers part. I have to listen to the audience. Where are they really meeting them? And back to theater. If you're in theater, you got to do what you got to do. The lines are set, they're memorized, there's not that flexibility. I can respond to the audience things that come from the audience. I can change things up. No one else is waiting for me to say something on stage.

Jen Rafferty 09:54
Sure. So the other part to that was why is that breaking the fourth wall? All important because what I'm also hearing you say is, there is an underlying sense of creating safety for the audience to invite them in to participate, because being seen and feeling seen, is vulnerable. And so can you talk a little bit more about why breaking that fourth wall is so important?

Michael Katz 10:28
The way I think I'm going to answer that is why it's so important now? We all went through the pandemic together, as human beings, educators, etc. And being educated on screen, and since we have so much screen time happening now these days for everyone, that even if a student's camera was on, they didn't feel seen, and could basically drift away. Here's a good example, I will tell stories, and three years later, kids will be able to recount the story to me. The reason why is there's audience participation. I found that out because another storyteller has a child who's heard all the finest storytellers, my mentors, the child only remembered my stories. And it's not an ego thing I'm saying, because I said, Wait, no, these other storytellers are amazing. And we tried to figure out why they remembered my stories, there was audience participation. It was it was audience participation. So when I'm performing now live, thankfully, it's important to let them know they're being seen for themselves., on scene. I think it's what we all want. We want to be seen and heard. I hope that answers the question.

Jen Rafferty 11:46
Yeah, it sure does. Because while we're talking about right now, storytelling, which on its own, might seem myopic, as a one channel of the very many ways we can communicate with people, I think there's so much richness in what we can take from the lessons of storytelling, of what is actually doing for us creating a connection on a human level. And being seen and heard, is such a basic human need. And the craft of storytelling is as old as time. And going back to basics of who we are in this very simple way of sharing truth, I think is really important. And I think you're right, especially now, because while feeling seen and being seen is something that we have to navigate through, because we haven't had the opportunity to feel seen in a while because of the state of things. Having your voice be heard is quite another thing. And I know that, that's also something that you work with, not just kids, but adults too. And, you know, education spaces of knowing your voice and feeling not just comfortable, but again, safe to speak your truth. So can you speak a little bit about that, I would love to know more about your thoughts and your methods about how you work with that with people.

Michael Katz 13:17
If I may, before I there was something you were saying about this being seen, and storytelling, and you were talking about how possibly the oldest form of orders all this art form, oldest form of teaching history of lore of everything. After the pandemic, I wasn't sure how kids would respond to live storytelling. And I was worried that they wouldn't be into it anymore, well get it, they've been into it even more, it's in their bones, its in our bones. I was so happy to see that, that had not been erased yet. It's so connecting, it's so connecting. You know, and also at the end of a performance kids will just walk up to me it's not like, You know, I'm some big stars. No, and let's talk, let's interact, and I feel they feel they can do that. Because that wall has been broken. So I thank you for giving, letting me share that as well. The importance of speaking your truth. Well, you know my feelings about storytelling, when people ask me, you know, Hey, you have some points on tips on telling stories. I always say you start with a story that resonates for you. So number one, not here, we're in this and tell it like what resonates for you. For kids, I need to choose those stories. But fortunately, I got lucky and shows four stories that kids love. And then it's really just an issue of what reading level are they at. So each of my stories that I use whatever reading level they're at, I have the appropriate story. And other than that, the stories that they love, you know, over time I realized that. For the adult, it then is what resonates for you. And back to my belief in comprehension versus memorization, I teach them to make outlines so that they don't memorize so that it is their voice that comes through. And, you know, sometimes I'll have a kid say, So this dude was walking down the street. you know, later on the next kids, Wait was dude on the other piece of paper? They're gonna say no. I said, Is it okay that he said, dude? Yeah. Because he's bringing himself to it. And we can feel that when someone's memorize something, sadly, many of us suffer from perfectionism, I'll put it that way. And we're trying to get every single word, right. And when those storytellers get up, you know, they sound like a book. And they tend to be more stressed, they don't connect with the audience, because they're looking up in the ceiling, trying to remember words. But if somebody knows what's happening in the story, and just shares it, from what excites them, Ah!, you know that now you're bringing yourself to it now. Now, it's, it's your voice, it's got your mark on it. I've heard these stories. And I've told stories. And I'm not exaggerating over 1000 times. It's not an exaggeration. I never tired of the stories I tell or hear from the kids. I'm still hearing new things in each story. And every time it's being told, it's a new audience, it's always brand new. So there's this beautiful personal mark that we put on our telling, that makes it special, but alive and present.

Jen Rafferty 16:31
It's so powerful to because the confidence that you get to learn to feel in the unknown, of something that you just have an outline for is a skill in of itself. And I'm speaking to this not only as a former control freak, and also, a high achieving performer, that especially going through music school, or just school, in general, the object was to get A's, to have someone say, Good job!, and the applause at the ends, or the standing ovation. And often that happened because I needed to follow a certain recipe that was designed by someone else. So even if I was singing one of my favorite show tunes, or an art song by Mozart, I could be expressive. But creative is a totally different skill. And the creativity, for me, didn't develop until I sought it out for myself much later in life, because creativity meant I was going off script. And, Michael, I'll be honest with you, that scared the shit out of me. It was something that was very scary. And so how do you work with people in letting go and speaking from the heart, and from who they are inside and being okay with not following a script?

Michael Katz 18:03
I love what you said, I love what you shared. First, word creativity is like, I did resonated so much what we were saying. So thank you. Yeah, cool, retreat quick, I was on a silent retreat. Well, kind of a silent retreat, do a meditation retreat. And but there was a point where we were doing something where communication was involved. And the teacher said, Go out for 10 minutes of silent creativity is gone for 10 minutes and come back and share something with a group. And we're out in the 29 volumes out in California, the desert near Joshua Tree is stunning out there in barren and beautiful. And here, I am a performer. I went out there and I was like, Okay, I know what to do here. I'll go, do this. I know I'll be entertaining, make them laugh, I'll do this thing. And I just I went out and I said no, I'm so tired of that. So tired of the stick, you know that being on. I go, I'm just gonna sit here. Wait, like 10 minutes. I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna wait for some inspiration to come, and I sat there and a little scary at first and then I just go into it. You know, this inspiration came like, Oh, I'm gonna do something with sound. That sounds like fun. I'm going to pick up things and I'll have people close their eyes, and I'll walk by and I'll rub things together by their ears or something like that, that, and nothing to do with performance. It was just really genuine. That to me was creativity. So I love that you touch on this this term like, what is creativity? To create a safe space for the storytellers for that vulnerability? I've got a whole well, let's see. I always tell students, when you get up there to tell a story. It's impossible to do anything wrong. So first, we're not even performing for an audience of people who don't know we're in a classroom. So if I'm in a classroom at school, and I always have them sitting on the floor, always sitting on the floor, because sitting at a desk is just is not the same isn't that proximity and all that. And I go, it's impossible to do anything wrong. Instead, if you do this, and I'll show them how I do it, I'll just stand there like staring out into space. I go, I will be in the back going like this. And I give them the thumbs up like, right? Because he got up. And literally, that's it. You're showing up, you stood up, and the first time only tells you where you're at. That's all it's for. And I forget this all the time. Of course, there's a zillion things out there. I don't do because I want to do them perfectly the first time. And it's absurd. It's absolutely absurd.

Jen Rafferty 20:35
Yeah. Can you say that again? Because that was so powerful. You said the first time tells you where you're at.

Michael Katz 20:40
It's only there to tell us where we're at. That's it. Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 20:44
So powerful.

Michael Katz 20:45
I mean, every time it's there, really. I mean, once your performing, it gets a little different, it's different. But you know that first time it's like, and then I go, it tells you where you're at. And then you want to go some, maybe the next time you'll get an A word out. But don't set the bar, and I'm going to tell like Michael Katz tells you know, I mean, and I can't tell the way you tell, and you can't tell the way I tell. So the first time just tells us where you're at it's possible. Next thing I always share with them is, if you forget, this was the instance, I always share a story about this boy named Billy and I call him a man-boy. Man-boys are little boys that already looked like men. You know, they'd like they're in like, third grade, and its like has already got like sausage fingers. And he got up, it was like one of these really confident kids who'd like to come up and tell the story. And he's like one of the first ones in our said, Billy, come on up here. And he comes up, and he stares at the audience, and he just froze. And he's looking at the audience. And then he said out loud, he goes like this. This is weird, now I know why everybody forgets. And we all started laughing, you know? And I said, it is weird, that it is weird. You know, let's just admit it. It's kind of weird. All these people are staring at you. It's a lot. It's a lot of energy. So if you feel that way, join the club. You know, so I just set the ground like, Yeah, this may feel really weird, there's a few of us out there that just it feels great. But for those of you that think it feels weird, join the club. Then if you forget, I had a girl get up and she was, she had a one of the hardest stories to read the highest level of reading skill, reading level. And she got up there and I could see the serious look on her face, I can just kind of reading body language and she starts telling the story. And you know, once upon a time, and I can tell it's memorized. It's like the exact words page. It's just doesn't sound like her natural voice. And then she forgets for a moment. And then she takes, and you'll be able to see it, but the audience will. She took her fingernails, both hands start, like pressing it's or forehead when she forgot, and you know, breathing really hard, like, and I just quickly said, Stop, please stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Because she was digging her fingernails into her forehead. She pulls her hands away, and you could see like little spots where she was digging the nails in, I mean with this horrible perfectionist thing that we, that many of us live with. And I asked her how many times did you read the story. And I always tell them to read your story at least three times. And then stop there. If they read more than they'll start getting in the habit of memorizing that read it three times great for those kids that don't read enough. And great, so limit those kittens that read maybe too many times. And by the third time, you're going to write yourself notes that will help you to remember. I said how many times did you read the story? And she said, three. I said how many times that I asked you to read the story. She said three. So maybe you should be proud of yourself. Maybe be should, maybe you should be going like this. And the audience can't see it. But I'm patting my shoulder with a big smile on my face and saying, Good job i forgot! She laughed, which is what I wanted. The kids laughed. And so I have kids now walking up to me a year after I've taught them storytelling and they'll walk up to me, they'll pat their shoulders and, Good job I forgot. Just to know that it's to re-frame it. So forgetting is a good thing. Because it means you know it just can't remember it. You we all know how it is we try to remember something we can't. It's when we relax that we remember I mean when do I remember things lying in bed in the morning and taking a shower? What do they have in common? I'm relaxed. And so when they pat themselves in the smile is key. They have to smile. And of course we know when we smile it sends up or whether they're happy.

Jen Rafferty 20:53
Yeah, you're right. They have the endorphins and all the good happy neurochemicals. Yeah.

Michael Katz 24:24
Right? So you feel better you smile. And of course you take a breath the key to almost all of this. You relax and then you remember and kids will... I watch it over and over again. They remember and then I'll when they remember it's are telling for a while I'll stop them for a moment. I said Did I tell them what to say? And the kids will say no. They said, Did they remember? Yeah, I go it works, you know? And so this idea of stop punishing ourselves for forgetting out of self compassion.

Jen Rafferty 25:04
Well, that story that you just shared about that young girl, we learn that perfectionist habit really early. And it becomes part of our hardwiring, which now so many of us decades later are still, as you said, suffering from perfectionism. And being able to create new neural pathways for that little girl, where it is safe to forget, it is safe to show up and not be perfect, is really powerful. And I would love to reflect back at you, which I hope this is okay. Having the adults in these spaces, like you show up for these kids knowing that about themselves and you get to say, watch me, watch me do this, you know, inherently create safety for them, to do it themselves. And that, that's a game changer for anyone gets to work with you.

Michael Katz 25:59
Thanks. Yeah, thank you. And I will after I tell a story or when I go to schools that teach storytelling, it's always... I do a residency. And so if they see me in the assembly, I will tell them later on, you know, I forgot something during that story. Do you know what I when I forgot, and they won't, you know, and I go, Well, I did good job I forgot. But I'm a performer, I have to do it differently. And then I show them the famous thing of buying time, you know, where I told this story once. It was at the Disney console, which you mentioned. And the story is, three riddles to it. And I got the riddles out of order. And this is King doing these riddles, You know, Number one, and I said unfortunately said number two, the second riddle, the second riddle. I said Riddle number three. And then when I got to the third one, I couldn't remember it. And there I am in front of 1000 people. And I'm you know, I'm the king. And the third riddle is, and it's like, Oh, crap. Of course, I didn't say that. But I go, the third riddle is and I took a breath a big smile. I go, Hmm, this one better be good. And I was doing good job. I forgot it. I tell the kids out. I just do it a little differently. And then I smiled and took a nice breath. You know, told myself, everything's gonna be okay. And then, Okay, I wouldn't like that. And I heard some laughter from the audience. But they didn't know I'd forgotten. They'd like the AHA. You know, and oh, great.

Jen Rafferty 27:33
Yeah, that's just it. That's the whole thing. There is no script, there is no right. There is no perfect, there is no wrong. And we create all of these limitations for ourselves because of our fear of what we might be perceived like or what it means about us. And all of this is just us making things up and creating limitations for ourselves. And what was so interesting and attractive about your work for me is that there are no rules. It is so expensive, in its limitless possibility. And I find that so exciting,

Michael Katz 28:11
Hmm, Yeah. It was inspiring for me, and maybe it will be inspiring for people listening. Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize at Lewis. Yeah, for literature.

Jen Rafferty 28:23
Oh, yeah. The controversy about that. I remember that, too.

Michael Katz 28:27
Yeah. And of course, he didn't show up for the awards. And Patti Smith, who is a musician I happen to adore. She showed up, and she sang one of his classic songs. And there she is in front of the king and the queen, dignitaries from around the world, the world. And she is doing the most beautiful version of his song. So beautiful. And she starts stumbling and forgetting the words, on the biggest stage, you can imagine. She tries to get back into the it, but she can't. And you're just going, Oh, oh. And she says to the audience, I'm just so nervous. And she looks at the orchestra again, can we start again. She started up again, finished it beautifully. Like that was amazing that she just found her place again. The Ovation she got was for that moment. She was a human in front of all of us. And it was okay. It was okay. And they were given permission back to what you said. Maybe they're inspired by me sharing that with the students. Well, I was inspired by watching Patti Smith do it on a world stage and do it so gracefully. We need more of that we need more just honesty, vulnerability.

Jen Rafferty 29:37
That is a beautiful share. And so important because of just that, that recognition of one's humanity, and the sharing of that is really special and you get to do this in this really cool, fun way. Which is so awesome. So I could talk to you for hours. I am so interested And really how it is that you do what you do. But one of the things that was also so fun for me that day that we met was actually hearing you share a story. So I would love for you to share a story with the audience today.

Michael Katz 30:15
And this is interesting, I was letting the eyes of, was letting Jen know that I use animation. In my stories, I use audience participation, I use a what I call them the imaginary landscape. But when it's our role, when it's just our ears, hearing it, those pauses that I put in there for those moments are lost. And so it's always a challenge and fun to find those stories, you know, what can translate on the air? Versus what can only seem to be done in person, or, you know, when I recorded my CD, I had to rewrite the stories. And that was a fun project. And then the rewriting of those stories affected the way I told it live in the future, which I think is really neat. So, let me see here. Give me the legs, give me some limitations, because that'll decide this...

Jen Rafferty 31:06
Couple of minutes. I don't know.

Michael Katz 31:07
Okay, great. That's the one, that will tell the one I was thinking of doing. And it's possibly a story people have heard. But I think it's profound. Especially nowadays.

Michael Katz 31:18
Once there was a gossip. And this gossip, he talked about everybody behind their backs, everybody, including his friends. And I say that loosely because he is somebody who talks behind your back truly a friend. Well, his friends thought about this as well. And they started thinking, Well, if he is talking about him, behind his back, then he's probably talking about me behind my back. And that's not somebody I can trust. One by one, his friends left him until he was all alone. The Gossip knew he had a problem. So he went to visit the wise woman. And he walked in to her home and said, wise woman, I need help. And she didn't even need to hear anything more because she knew what the problem was. And she said to him, go home. Find a pillow. Get a knife. Stick the knife in the pillow. Kind of holding it. Hold the pillow above your head and run back here. Sounded strange, but she was the wise woman. So he went home. Oh, he got a beautiful feather pillow. Got up the knife, stuck it into the pillow, feathers all over the place. Cut a hole in the pillow. More feathers falling out of the pillow. Held the pillow above his head, feathers snowing down on him ran to the wise woman's home, feathers blowing in the wind. By the time he got to the wise woman's house, the pillowcase was empty. And he held it in his hands, and he looked at the wise woman and said What should I do now? And she said, go and gather all the feathers. I can't do that the winds blown them all over the place. And she stood up and she looked at him and she said it's the same way with words. Once they're out of your mouth, you can't take them back. So as we go out into the world, it's a good idea to ask ourselves three questions before we speak. Is what I'm about to say true. Is it beneficial? Is it the right time?

Jen Rafferty 34:24
We got stories snaps for that one. Thank you for that. It's a gift. Thank you.

Michael Katz 34:31
Thanks for asking for it.

Jen Rafferty 34:33
So many of us in this world are so focused on being productive, and hustle and getting the next paycheck and making sure we take the kids to the soccer practice. And sure dinner's ready in time and everyone's in bed at the right bedtime and getting up early and going again and doing the whole schedule every day and we very rarely take time to receive story like this. And I think this speaks to not just storytelling in this way, but also art in general, where we can be sitting in the quiet, without all the noise and experiencing something that speaks to our soul. And that's really powerful. And like I said, it's a gift. And I hope that those of you listening, consider taking time to prioritize the quiet and receiving of this gift, because it's available, not on your phone scrolling on Instagram. It happens through purposeful connection with each other, and especially through art.

Michael Katz 35:56
And nature, I'd say.

Jen Rafferty 35:58
Yes, well, isn't that the greatest art of all?

Michael Katz 36:02
Yeah, of course, I've got a podcast playing while I'm cooking. Can I just cook and be into that? Or can I sit down in a chair outside and do nothing? You know, we've only had so much time. But when we were starting, you were saying, you know, if I wanted to see changes in schools and what you know, what kind of changes I'd like to see, one of them would be do nothing time. We need to learn how to do nothing. So just be...

Jen Rafferty 36:31
Yeah, to just be less doing more being.

Michael Katz 36:33
Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 36:34
Yeah,

Michael Katz 36:34
Re-learning that.

Jen Rafferty 36:35
Ah, yes. More of that, please. And so I will now officially ask you that question. If there is more there, what is your dream for the future of education?

Michael Katz 36:46
First, teachers need more support. So and I think we need to prioritize education. So, you know, we can go back and forth with the debate, our teachers paid enough, so forth and so on, we need to make it attractive enough to want to do it. And to say, I can pay the bills, that my heart is there, but it's alleviates those concerns, and to have enough support for a teacher because the needs of students now are greater, you know, and I've just seen it over 30 years now. And it will allow more students to be seen, this teacher to be more supportive, to be able to do more of the teaching, more arts, more the arts, always. All of this is open to discussion, of course, but you know, less emphasis on a lot of the testing, or nature. There's an organization on town called Wilderness Youth Project. And the radical thing that Wilderness Youth Project does, is they have no location. They're outside. I know, we're fortunate in Santa Barbara, where I live, you can be outside, you're gonna be cold, it gets cold here. I mean, I know people from the East Coast, come here and get cold, but you prepare for it. And that idea of being outside, just more outside time. I want to say this, the stuff we call soft stuff, more of that.

Jen Rafferty 38:06
More of that. Yes. Because the hard stuff, creates armor, more of everything you just said, I appreciate you sharing that. And I asked that question really intentionally to all of my guests, because I know that when we speak our dreams, we're closer to making them a reality. So thank you for sharing that.

Michael Katz 38:25
Thanks.

Jen Rafferty 38:26
Michael has been fantastic. Like I said, I could talk to you forever. But unfortunately, we cannot do that on the show. So for those people who are listening, and wants to know more about you and the work that you do, where can they reach you?

Michael Katz 38:39
Best way is to start through my website. I'm not a very social media savvy. But I do have a website, and it's storytellermichael.com. And that's the best way to contact me. Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 38:53
Fantastic. And the link to the website will be on the show notes. So we'll make it super easy for people to get in touch and learn more about everything that you do in this world. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your talents. I really appreciate you talking with me today.

Michael Katz 39:07
And thank you for having me. It was it was a pleasure. I'm glad I had the opportunity to meet you.

Jen Rafferty 39:12
And if you love today's episode, please make sure that you share with a friend and write a review and we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty 39:20
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

Seeking self-growth? How does overcoming personal challenges empower us with Jillian Seibel Pawlowski

As an educator, putting yourself first isn't selfish – it's transformational.

When you prioritize self-care, you become a better version of yourself for those around you.

In today’s episode, join me and Jillian Seibel Pawlowski, as we dive deep into personal growth, coaching, and the power of transformation.

Jillian is a Trauma-Informed Certified Transformational Coach, who has joined our Empowered Educator team.

Jillian and I delved into the transformative power of coaching. Unlike self-help books, coaching provides personalized guidance, helping you uncover blind spots and bridge the gap between where you are and where you want to be.

We also discussed the benefits of mindfulness and how it can help you make empowered choices and shift priorities.

Remember, you have the power to make a positive impact, not just on your students, but on your own life as well. You deserve it!

Stay empowered,
Jen

Ps. Discover more about our upcoming workshop, "6 Truths to Return to Your Favorite Self" This workshop is designed to guide you back to your authentic self and provide tools for sustaining that transformation.

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Jillian:
Jillian is a trauma informed certified transformation coach. She specializes in radical self-love, metacognition, consciousness, and the unification of mind and body to help people transform the way they experience themselves and life. Her expertise provides a safe space for clients to grow towards expansive self-love and self-actualization. Her passion for personal and professional growth is the foundation for her calling: to make the world a kinder, more loving place. Take a look at this CLIP from Jillian's impact talk. (Watch the full talk HERE)

Connect with Jillian:
IG: @dreamworthylifecoach
Email: jillian@empowerededucator.com

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former Music Teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and Founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are, in this season. We're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:44
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Take Notes. Today's episode is going to be a little different. And I'm going to chat with you before I introduce our guest. As many of you know, I began my career as a Music Teacher in Central New York, and I truly loved it. I thought I was going to do that for the rest of my career. You know, I loved inspiring kids, especially middle school kids, to find their voice, and to create a connection with music as some sort of creative, expressive outlet that they could use for the rest of their lives. And like so many people, I struggled to find myself during COVID. And while yes, I needed to shift to online teaching, also, two months prior to that my husband and I decided it was time to get a divorce. So I moved out of my house with my two kids who were five and seven at the time, the same weekend, the world shut down in March of 2020. Everything that I thought I was the day before I felt all of a sudden, I just wasn't, I wasn't a wife, I wasn't in my old house, I wasn't even able to stand in front of my students and lead them in choir singing itself at the time was thought to be very dangerous, and I felt lost. But through it all, I kept asking some really important questions, like, Who am I? And who do I want to be? And so in the fall of 2020, I decided to stay home for what I thought would just be a semester to homeschool my kids which I can share those stories on another episode perhaps, I started my PhD in Educational Psychology and started my own healing journey. I continue to dive into the research of Cognitive Neuroscience because I loved it. I was really interested in mindset, and I became certified as an Emotional Intelligence Practitioner. And for fun, I started this little podcast because it was something that I had wanted to do for a really long time. And I finally felt like I had the time, I was still planning to go back to the classroom. So what I wanted to do on the show was to expand the conversation about Music Education, and its intersection with the Social Sciences. My nerdy self was very excited. I still get very excited talking about all of those things, which is why I have the guests on today like I do. But in any case, I had all types of guests on the show. And I've had some really fantastic conversations. And we talked about moving music education in so many new directions. And this became Season One of Take Notes. So if you're interested, go ahead and take a look. But when it was time to decide whether or not to go back to teach something inside of me called me in a new direction. You know, we all saw how wide the gap was between what teachers needed and what they were able to get regarding the support of their own well being during this time of COVID. So I decided to write my resignation letter in February of 2021, and to be honest, it felt amazing. I remember smiling so wide, after I signed and printed that letter and sent it off. I felt empowered, I was really excited about the future. And then about four days later, I was a hot soggy mess blubbering on my couch wondering what the fuck did I just do? I left a job that I was great at. I wanted to be a teacher my whole life. I have kids to feed, have a roof over my head. What did I just do? And with the support of some incredible friends, and a community that I was beginning to cultivate with other people going through their own pivots, I really learned to trust myself and Empowered Educated was born. I started a company and this company focused on the social and emotional well being of the adults in schools. Because in order for educators to make transformational generational change, we need to understand that the most generous thing that we can do for our students is take care of ourselves. And it's continued to become so ironic for me especially now with the rise of social emotional learning programs that are definitely more of a check the box thing to do than actual embodiment of any of the content. And how can you teach something if you don't understand it and believe it, and model it yourself. Educators have the most important job in the world. And our kids are watching us for how to human. And some of the ways in which things have always been, simply aren't serving us anymore. Things like living in perpetual stress and anxiety. Things like being afraid to take a sick day because of the shame and the judgment of the fallout. Things like putting yourself last because you believe that taking time or basic self care, things like bathroom breaks, are selfish. Things like being a veteran teacher, and yet still feeling year after year, the same struggles that you had as a first year teacher. And the truth is, so many of us have been running on empty, because you believed that feeling overwhelmed is normal. You've been believing that your stress has to be the driver that runs your life. But here, an Empowered Educator, we get to play with what's possible, because we get to ask questions like, What would change for you, if you believe that creating a healthy work life blend is well within your reach? What would change if you actually believed that you are worthy of rest? What would it be different if you lived your life uninterrupted? And what's so cool about all of this is these are the questions that I continue to ask myself and have gotten me from that moment of sitting on my couch, sobbing my eyes out to 18 months later being on that TEDx stage, and now running this beautiful organization that empowers educators all over the world. Because we exist as a space for teachers, and school leaders and parents and paraprofessionals and office staff to wake up to their inherent worth, and to pave a pathway to someplace new, a world that can grow for our kids from a place of love, and compassion, and connection, and self worth. Because the truth is, if we want our children to know their self worth, we need to know ours. And I've been so fortunate to work with so many schools and empowered educator continues to grow at rapid speed because this is the work that makes everything else work. So let's do things differently. And as a part of our incredible growth here, we have a new member of the Empowered Educator team. And we're talking with her today. And we're going to chat about what's next in empowered educator as well as her role in supporting every educator who wants it. I am over the moon to introduce you to Jillian Seibel Pawlowski, who is a trauma informed Certified Transformational Coach. She specializes in radical self love, metacognition, consciousness and the unification of mind and body to help people transform the way they experience themselves. And life. Her expertise provides a safe space for clients to grow towards expansive self-love, and self-actualization. And she is hosting an epic event on December 22, in Empowered Educator to kick off our newest one to one coaching program here. So I brought her on the show today so we can all get to know her and have a chat. So welcome, Jillian. Hello.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 08:32
Hello!

Jen Rafferty 08:36
I'm so excited that you're here.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 08:37
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Jen Rafferty 08:40
So let's dive in. What is the support that you are actually able to get when you're working with somebody one-to-one instead of anything else that we might be doing? Because a lot of us seek support and all these outside spaces I always think of the song Closer to Find by the Indigo Girls, which is one of my favorites, jammin on the car cry every time I can't help it and thank you to the Barbie movie. Now everybody knows this song. But we look to these external things, and sometimes we need to focus our energy a little bit more clearly. So let's talk about that. Regarding coaching. Tell me about what that is like for you.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 09:18
The support I've actually received in coaching took me by surprise at how transformational, powerful, safe, deep it can go. I love that you reference that song Closer to Find because look, support looks different for everybody. Okay, you are unique. The support systems in your life should also be unique. And the beauty of one-to-one coaching is that it is one to one. So you are in this safe place with someone who is devoted to listening to you. That's what a coach is, is like an expert listener, and then asking you questions and helping you navigate through different perspectives of what's possible, what could be different, it's a lot of listening. So that way you can unpack, you get that time to unpack, take all the thoughts out of your head for a second, let them be voiced, let them be heard. And just from that alone, a lot of clarity happens when you hear yourself say something out loud, that you have kept inside, or kept in your head. And it's just been swirling around when you say it out loud, you might already see it a different way. And then when you hear it reflected back to you, you can understand something new from it, and gain a new perspective or at least see it more clearly. So that you can kind of start to untangle, untangle. I don't know the mess we make inside our heads or the mess we make in solitude.

Jen Rafferty 11:05
Well, it's like the Charlie Brown cartoons.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 11:07
Yeah,

Jen Rafferty 11:08
Little squiggly lines on top of their heads, that is often what so many of our thoughts feel like, without sharing out loud, would you share with our listeners how you came to your own growth journey, and how this has really impacted your life?

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 11:26
Yeah, I would love to. So it's basically closer to funding, okay, just listen to the songs. You know, I tried so many modalities and pathways to healing to growth, I took myself down every personal development rabbit hole, and spiritual path that I could find, and they were great. And I got all the self help books, and they were great and fine. And I still felt myself kind of just doing the next right thing. And still wondering day in and day out is this all there is, I felt very stuck. And like the self help books were pleasing to read, until I moved on to the next book. And then I didn't apply anything that I learned or didn't know how to apply what I had learned. And one day a friend passed off this honestly a coaching workshop. To me, it was a four day coaching workshop experience. And I attended and through that was invited to invest in my first coach. And I had never invested in myself before like that. And I have also never fully understood myself the way that I do now on the other side of investing in my first coach. So through everything that I learned and discovered and healed, through coaching, and through that beautiful space, that coaching is that transformational space truly, I also was able to identify a lot of limiting beliefs that I wasn't aware I was running under like you don't know, what you don't know. And that's also the power of coaching, right? What somebody else can lovingly and powerfully open your eyes to, and then show you the how behind all of the personal development and the self help books and the spiritual paths. Like that's what a coach is, right? Somebody who shows you the the game plan and puts in and gives you the oranges at halftime, you're doing a great job, and then asks you the powerful questions. So that way you can come to your own empowered decision, because that's what feels good. And that's what feels like growth when you can say yourself, Oh, isn't that interesting? I discovered X-Y-Z about myself in that last session. And now I'm going to take them and apply them in 1-2-3. Coaching is live to you right here, right now in the moment. And it's personal to you right here right now in the moment. So you know how you might read a book at one time of your life. And certain chapters. Oh, that felt really good. And all that opened my mind. And that's amazing. And then if you come back to it 20 years later, if you read the same book, and it might hit you an entirely different way, the difference in coaching is that it's live. So it's like you're with the author who's blowing your mind about yourself, personally, actively, currently, as you are, and you're able to unpack more than something that is information. It's actually the application step that will transform. And that's what COVID is help with.

Jen Rafferty 14:46
Yeah, I think that's the difference. Right? We're almost bombarded by information. I don't see it. We are we are bombarded by information all the time all day. And I don't know that we need more information. What We need are reminders of application. To then create transformation because it doesn't matter how many books you read, I'm saying this as an avid reader who's running out of real estate on our bookshelf, while the books that I'm reading, but none of that actually matters if there's no application to it. And it's that application piece that is essential. And that's the first thing that slides right. As a teacher sitting in a lot of these professional development workshops, you'd sit there, and maybe there'd be a handful of them that struck you, you know, and you're sitting there like, Wow, that's interesting. I never thought of it that way. And you leave feeling super inspired. And then two weeks later, everything's out the window, because you're in the weeds again, and then two years go by and you're like, Oh, yeah, that person was kind of great. But what was the benefit of it other than this nice memory, and it's that application integration pieces. That's what matters.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 16:03
Right? Application and integration? Because it's the continued support.

Jen Rafferty 16:09
What's so great about coming into this work, is that you have all the answers inside of you.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 16:16
Yes.

Jen Rafferty 16:17
And we need somebody on the outside to reflect that back to you.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 16:23
Yeah, I think I heard you say it, You can't read the label from inside the bottle. I love that, Jen. And I would agree, you know, I love that, I don't know, it seems like people are slowly starting to take on to wellness and prioritizing themselves slowly, but surely, you want to get fit, go to the gym, you want to figure out why you can't actually go to the gym, after you say you want to go to the gym all the time, get a coach,

Jen Rafferty 16:54
it's so funny that you brought that example up, because that was literally something that I was talking about, earlier this week, in a workshop that I was having with someone said exactly that, Jen, I know that going to the gym feels good in my body, my body knows that it feels good going to the gym. How come when things get really overwhelming, I stopped going to the gym? And so we were able to work through this underlying limited belief of when things get super overwhelming, I put myself last. So of course, it makes sense that you're not going to the gym, if that's what you believe, that you need to put yourself last when things get really busy and overwhelming. So it doesn't matter if your mind knows and your body knows, if your subconscious doesn't know and agree, you're gonna go into the gym. And there needs to be a match with what you want and the help that you receive and the support that you receive. Because you're not going to get a chiropractor, if you're interested in learning about gardening. You know, you need to be able to really identify, well, where am I? Where do I want to be? And where can I find the bridge? And that's what we get to do here in this space through now, which is so exciting this one to one support, but also all the programming that we have here through in Empowered Educator provide the bridge, so there is no longer this gaping hole between where you are and where you want to be. And you get to become the person who you want to be. And the truth is, you deserve this. It's not just you who deserve this, but your students deserve this. Your kids deserve the best of you. So they know that they're capable of being the best of them. That is why this is so important.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 18:54
Absolutely. Yeah, it has been modeled for so long, what stress looks like you said earlier, stress is the driver that runs your life. And I think so many people can relate to that. And that's why we're creatures of habit. And we'll get into these habits and these patterns in these comfort zones that are driven by our subconscious mind. We're not even thinking about it anymore. But what if love was the driver or kindness that runs your life? And what is that's what was modeled? And what if that's what students saw, loving and kindness and this lighter, brighter energy in leadership and teachers? What if that's what they saw? What would that impact be? On everyone involved. If love or kindness was the driver, what's the habitual state? That's what everybody deserves.

Jen Rafferty 19:47
Yeah.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 19:48
And as the power to get to truly. Once you wake up and realize that it's possible, and treat yourself to the support you deserve.

Jen Rafferty 19:56
Well, and that's just it, right? So wouldn't that be great? If kindness and love were the homeostasis and not the stress and the overwhelm, that is the world that I see. You know, I've shared this. So many times, I perpetually wear rose colored glasses, unapologetically on my face at all times. Because I know that there is a world that can exist beyond what we currently are experiencing. And if we're only looking at what we're experiencing, we're never going to elevate out of it. So I need to believe that there is a world in which kindness and love is in the driver's seat. And I also want to just make it explicitly clear. We're not only talking about kindness and love outward, kindness and love inward, and I would venture to say that that often needs to come first. Because when you start to be kind, and truly love yourself, everything that you do externally becomes that much stronger and brighter and greater and has more impact. Because it starts with you.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 21:07
It certainly must come first confirmed.

Jen Rafferty 21:10
Yes, accurate. And it's so ironic, because so often, I hear, especially from teachers, I know this, and I tell this to my kids all the time, but I forget about me. So can we just stay there for a little bit and talk about that. And I think we know why we've gotten there. But how do we start shiftin away from that?

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 21:34
Shifting away from forgetting about me begins with the knowing, deeply, truly, or the willingness to know and learn and deeply believe that all outward love starts within word self-love that you get to put yourself first. And when you do put yourself first anything that you then put out is stronger. So starting with that acknowledgement is important. And then increasing mindfulness. Okay, I'm going to talk about this for a second, because it's empirically demonstrated for all of my fellow research nerds out there. Mindfulness has extensive benefits. And when you increase your mindfulness or your awareness, you increase your opportunity to remember or to make a new choice, rather than living in a habitual autopilot state.

Jen Rafferty 22:37
It's everything, you know, mindfulness too has become a triggering word for some people now in education, because it's like, Wait, you're telling me now on top of everything I have to do, I now need to be mindful, screw you. Kind of thing. And I also want to be clear what we're saying, right now the mindfulness we're talking about isn't something else you need to do. Mindfulness is simply being aware of how you're feeling. And what you're thinking. That's it.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 23:11
Yeah, yeah. I say this with love. And I'm not asking anyone to blink their eyes, and all of a sudden be in this zen meditative state. That's not at all what mindfulness or awareness is, it's just awareness. Like you said, it's neutral. And I love you. If you're letting stress be the driver, of course, you're going to respond. Now I have to be mindful, and if you're curious, and you're interested in you ready, and you do want that sustainable change, to start remembering, to put yourself first or at least even considered somewhere on that to do list. You get to, you get to, it's about making a new empowered choice. And lovingly, it comes with a responsibility, not more things to add to your to do list, different things to prioritize on your to do list.

Jen Rafferty 24:08
That's what it is, is it shift in your priorities?

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 24:11
It's a little confronting, at first, when you're used to letting stress be the driver. And the transformational change that you deserve to start looking at life through a lens of love is worth it. It's you're worth it, you're so worth it. And it is so possible, just become more aware. And that's also the beauty and the power of coaching, right? Because me just saying, become more aware is not helpful. But powerful coaching spaces that coach around mindfulness or increasing awareness. If that's all we do, it's going to be amazing.

Jen Rafferty 24:51
It is going to be amazing. And I will also say something that comes up and I'm sharing this because this has come up several times this week, where teachers have said to me, this sounds amazing, Jen. And changes is really hard and takes a long time. So can you speak on that for a little bit too?

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 25:11
Well, I could go two different directions with it. And so I will so bear with me here. I'm not suggesting that the change that we're talking about is easy. But I would love to lovingly shed some light on that powerful language, that change is hard. It is, if you say it is, it is if that's where your thoughts are, which are pretend producing your feelings around it, and then producing the way you behave around it, like avoiding it. And then the result is, Oh, yeah! Confirmation changes heart, because I was avoiding the change. And I was feeling like crap about it. Because I was thinking about art it was, what else comes up is, I think people highly underestimate themselves, until they give it a shot.

Jen Rafferty 25:57
Yeah, let's talk about that. That did something to me, when you said that people underestimate themselves.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 26:04
Yeah, the more you are so much more powerful than maybe your upbringing allowed you to believe maybe your life experiences made you think about yourself. But the truth is, you are amazing. You are more powerful than you know, if you just give yourself the chance, and not in like a self defeatist sarcastic way, like truly give yourself the chance, recognize that you deserve it, and anything is possible. I mean, look at the world and all the amazing things that happen. It would be really fun to sit down and make a list of all of the incredible, mind blowing things that human beings can do. And I would argue that it's not because they're special, because so are you. You are uniquely amazing. And sometimes change does feel hard, endless resources and support are available to you should you just reach out and grab it, you don't have to do it alone. You're never alone.

Jen Rafferty 27:06
And that makes the change so much more bearable, in those growing pains, and joyful in the connectedness, of sharing that experience within a community and acknowledging that shared humanity in all of it. Because we all know the one thing that stays the same is that things change the way the world's.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 27:06
Yeah, well, if you think about any of these great transformational tales, they all had challenge. Every single good story, faces, hardship, challenge, adversity. But if you look at the end of the story, it's worth it. You wouldn't say, Well, I wish they never went on that epic quest journey. You wouldn't say that about the main character. So don't say it about yourself.

Jen Rafferty 27:54
So I would love to talk about this upcoming workshop because you have used the word truth several times in our conversation, and this incredible program that you have developed. I am so excited to offer this to the Empowered Educator audience and the take notes audience, and I would love for you to share about what is the truth about returning to your favorite self?

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 28:24
I am equally excited about offering the six truths to returning to your favorite self. And the reason I created it this way was because I noticed a pattern, I noticed this kind of collective experience where it feels like and this can be set in different time cycles, like, Okay, over the summer, we were living our best life. And we set all these intentions and had all these ideas and convictions of who we were going to be and how we were going to be and how we were going to show up and handle things. And you know, the semester starts and the honeymoon phase comes and goes and then in the blink of an eye, all of a sudden we're back on the hamster wheel doing the same thing we were doing last year in a very old familiar pattern of that same habit, or emotional or energetic state that we said we weren't gonna get in. And the same could be said for whatever new year's resolutions or, you know, I was feeling great this weekend. And I said, Okay, this week is going to be different. And then what happens? And so I see this collective forgetting of one's true self, collective forgetting of one's favorite version of himself, and maybe a sensation or a disempowering belief that it's not safe to express your true self and your favorite version of yourself. And Jen, I wrote this workshop from the heart. It came pouring out. And this is not one of the truths I'm sharing with you. But the truth, it embodies all six of them. The truth of my heart is that the unique expression of who you truly are, is your magic, and your medicine. And that's what the world needs. You know, so often, we're creatures of habit, and we find ourselves back in the old patterns that we would expect or back underneath all of this stress and pressure that the outside world puts on us, or that we put on ourselves. And if I do nothing else in this life, I would love to guide people back to the favorite version of themselves. So that way, they can feel that way, all the time, and never abandon themselves again.

Jen Rafferty 30:47
You know, I keep bringing it back to this place, because I need to be so explicit about this. This is about you, Yes. And it is about the next generation that is coming after you. Because if you are not giving yourself permission, to fully express yourself as your most favorite version of yourself all of the time, how are our kids going to do that. And I am not available to keep on keeping on the way that it has been. I want a world in which everyone understands themselves to a place where they feel comfortable in that authenticity, without playing small or not sharing or feeling afraid of what other people might think or feel when they express and they shine their light, we need bright light, and it has to come from you first. And the depth of this, and the impact of this is so far beyond whatever is going to happen in those 90 minutes of beautiful, potent, juicy application, integration, information, transformation, all of it, you know, it's what happens the next day and the day after, and the day after, and the new choices you make and the decisions and how you show up, and your choice to seek out support, and seek out community and learn more and have accountability towards yourself and recognize and be mindful when you fall off. And then you're gonna give yourself grace, and you're gonna come on right back. This is it for you. And for everyone that comes after you.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 32:50
The world needs it, and you deserve it. Because it would be tragic, to get to the end of your life, realizing only then, you had the power to give it to yourself all along. And so let's go ahead and start now. And so the six truths to return to your favorite self is just that. It's some beautiful wisdom that I is all my heart to share. And I call it wisdom because it came from my heart, period. And then there will be coaching, there's space for reflection, there's space for coaching. So that way, everybody who gets to be there feels satiated and supported and has clarity and begins their transformation journey, you're going to walk away with clarity on who that favorite version of yourself is. You're going to see them, you're going to feel them, you're going to know them. And you'll get the tools to embody them. Even when the going gets tough, you're going to understand why the fullest expression of yourself is your magic in your medicine and the ability to apply it. It's not only going to be inspirational and motivational, but you'll walk away with the tools of the trade. How? How to remember to return to your favorite self, especially when the going gets tough.

Jen Rafferty 34:12
And in all of that. What that results in of course is you waking up feeling amazing. Every single day. You having deeper connections with your family and the people in your life. You having more clarity and confidence in the work that you do. You prioritizing yourself in a way that you are able to return to the things that bring you joy that you might have said goodbye to and haven't touched for a while. That changes everything. And like Jillian said, you deserve it. You deserve all of it. Are there any last words that you want to share about this spectacular workshop that's happening on December 2?

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 34:57
Yeah, I want to send out an invitation to those who have ever been curious about coaching, or interested in what this type of support looks like, please be there. Come see, come get a taste of it, it's going to be 90 amazing minutes for you to be poured into. And you'll, A: receive love being poured into and B: you'll learn how to pour it into yourself.

Jen Rafferty 35:25
It's going to be absolutely transformational. I am so excited that you are on this team. I am just so glad you are a gift to this space. And I appreciate you.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 35:37
Thank you so so much.

Jen Rafferty 35:39
So get yourself a seat at this incredible event that's happening on December 2nd at 10 o'clock Eastern time. And yes, there will be a replay. The link is empowerededucator.com/favoriteself and the links are going to be in the show notes for you to make it super easy to sign up. Jillian, we're gonna see you back on the show soon because I love chatting about all the things. It's really great to talk with you.

Jillian Seibel Pawlowski 36:05
Yes, I love Take Notes. Let's go.

Jen Rafferty 36:10
And if you love today's episode, make sure you do check out those show notes. And we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty 36:17
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

Can Social-Emotional Learning unlock academic success and personal growth? With Dan Wolfe

Do you wonder if our education system might be overlooking crucial elements beyond academics, such as emotional and social readiness for real-world challenges?

In today's episode, we're joined by Dan Wolfe, an educator and Assistant Principal at Sunray Elementary. With over two decades of experience, Dan brings to life the transformative power of Social-Emotional learning (SEL).

We delved into the challenges and triumphs of implementing SEL in schools, the resistance it faces, and its broader implications for both children and adults.

Dan discussed the importance of individual morals and values in becoming our best authentic selves. He emphasized that there are different paths to personal growth and that it's essential to respect and honor others' perspectives, even if they differ from our own.

He also introduced his book, Becoming the Change, which provides practical tools for personal growth in SEL.

So, grab a cup of coffee, settle in, and join us to understand how embracing SEL can bring about transformative changes in education and beyond.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Dan:

Dan Wolfe has served in Pasco County, Florida for more than 20 years. During this time, he has held roles as a teacher, instructional coach and administrator. He is currently an Assistant Principal at Sunray Elementary. He was selected as Pasco County’s District Teacher of the Year in 2011-2012 school year. He is a part of the district’s Social and Emotional Learning (SEL) Committee that recently established Pre-K through Grade 12 SEL standards.

For the past two years Dan has written a blog called Becoming The Change (formerly Our Moral Compass) which focuses on a different quote each day and how we can best apply it towards becoming the change through our own moral compass and the five areas in SEL.

During his spare time Dan enjoys spending his time reading, listening to podcasts, and going to Disney with his wife and daughter.

For more information on his book, blog, podcast, social media links and other podcast interviews please go to: https://becoming-the-change.com/8258-2/

Connect with Dan:
Website: becoming-the-change.com
Twitter: @ServLeadInspire
LinkedIn: Dan Wolfe
Instagram:@serveleadinspirealways
Facebook: Dan Wolfe

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and does the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, emotional intelligence practitioner, mom of two, and founder of empowered educator and I've been where you are, in this season. We're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:44
Hello, and welcome back to another fantastic episode of Take Notes. Today, my guest is Dan Wolfe, who has served as a teacher, instructional coach and administrator in Pasco County, Florida for more than 20 years, and is currently an Assistant Principal at Sunray. Elementary. Dan was selected as Pasco County's district Teacher of the Year in 2011, to 2012. And for the past two years, Dan has written a blog called becoming the change, which focuses on how we can make change by becoming the change through our own moral compass and the five areas in SEL. And during his spare time, Dan enjoys spending his time reading, listening to podcasts and going to Disney with his wife and daughter. Dan, thank you so much for being here on the show.

Dan Wolfe 01:27
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Jen, I really appreciate it.

Jen Rafferty 01:29
I am excited to start this conversation, because obviously, social emotional learning is a really big topic right now. And often times, we focus a lot of that social emotional learning curriculum on the kids. And as you and I have discussed off the air, when we first spoke too, it's really more than that, and it needs to be spread to the adults in these spaces too in order to really embody and make actual change in the places that we want to change. So how do you approach SEL? I guess, first of all, you know, what is it for you? And then how do you approach it in the work that you do?

Dan Wolfe 01:37
Well, in terms of education, if academics are the lock, then I believe SEL is the key to open that up and open the doors to many of those avenues. Because I would rather have our students and my own personal child, be able to exhibit those five competencies or areas in their everyday lives, then to be a Rhodes Scholar, and not have those skill sets. Because to me, that's what's going to help move things forward as a society in the 21st century and beyond.

Jen Rafferty 02:35
Yeah, and I think you're right, you know, knowledge without heart doesn't really matter.

Dan Wolfe 02:39
Right. It's Maslow before bloom. And you had mentioned about like, as far as adults and everything in the field of education. And even if you're not in the field of education, as a parent, you're your child's first educator, and you are that role model you exhibit and the kids, those skills, and the kids are always watching you at all times. You know, they're watching how you interact with other adults. So if you have to school setting, how you're interacting with other teachers, are you that you're promoting things within your classroom with things of how they should treat one another? But are you embodying those same things as you're out in the real world, because again, we always talk about practicing what we're preaching. And that's what better example than to exhibit that for your kids.

Jen Rafferty 03:19
For sure, it's that embodiment that really makes a difference, because it doesn't matter what you say, it really does matter what you do. And so, when was the moment for you, or that time period where you kind of looked at the educational space and said, you know, there is something missing here, and this is where I'm going to focus my time and attention. When was that for you?

Dan Wolfe 03:40
It's something that's like, evolved over my 20 plus years in education, but it couldn't necessarily pinpoint it until our district had wanted a few years ago to write K-12, SEL standards around all five competencies and really see what that progression in that continuum of would look in where we talk about developing all child, but it's always about the academics. Now having the social behavioral side of it really kind of solidifies that. So being a part of that being able to build that curriculum, and that kind of like that roadmap for teachers to be able to use to have that balance within their classroom. I think really, what I noticed a lot was, it's all about the relationships, everything within the school system, even in society. It's about the relationships you have with others, how the relationship you have with yourself, first and foremost, and especially with social media, it helps in some instances to certain things, but it also I think, hinders as well good self esteem. They're looking at the number of likes and what I tried it and I would tell my own child, you know, you're more than a number of likes, if you're just posting just a post to get a reaction from it, but you're not just being authentic about it just because these are your thoughts or you agree with a quote, that's all that should matter. It doesn't matter the number of hits you get and everything else that's not the purpose of and I think in some instances, we as a society have lost that. And I think being able to bring it back to these things that these skill sets have always been within each of us, they just, let's just say haven't really always been brought to the forefront,

Jen Rafferty 05:10
Right, because that hasn't been a value. Because a lot of times, the result or the product of building these skill sets isn't necessarily external in a way that we can see, oh, well, I got an A on this test. And so understanding a metric for it is really important for some people. And, of course, we need data. But the data can look different than what we're currently measuring right now, which I think is an important shift. Otherwise, they're just chasing the wrong things.

Dan Wolfe 05:39
And I think also, when you mentioned about the data, I think in sometimes we're chasing the wrong data, we get so caught up in the state assessments and where we rank between other counties or other states, and kids are not test takers, not all of them. And I always tell my kids all the time, no matter what you're more than a number, you are a person, because not everything is going to show up on the spreadsheet. The growth that a child makes from not being able to self regulate at the beginning of the year, to where they progress by the end of the year, that to me matters more than anything else is being able to coexist and be able to get along with others and BM. And that might have been a skill set they had before. And that's not going to show up on a state report.

Jen Rafferty 06:21
Yep. And when we constantly pay attention to those older metrics of the awards, or the demerits, or the test scores, or the stickers on the sticker chart, those are the messages that get attached to us as individuals, we kind of create our identity around those things. And as we get older, it's like, okay, well how much money is in our bank account, and how many friends do I have, and how many, there's all of these external ideas of what success looks like. And it's just so backwards, where we really need to spend the time to foster this social and emotional well being of everybody. So we can really recognize what matters in this life, which is, as you said, relationships, it's finding what brings you joy, and it's being your most authentic self and creating safety. So you can be fully expressed as your authentic self. And that's the stuff that's going to make all of the knowledge learning so much juicier for everybody, because we're not all trying to fit in the same box.

Dan Wolfe 07:22
Right. And just like you had said, with the surface level, that's all surface level, the stickers are things and trying to encourage, and we tried to do this within our own school is when we're giving that specific praise to students tell them exactly what it was that they did correctly, so that they know to repeat it again, when they're adults, they're not going to have a signature, they're not going to have they're going to have things do and it needs to be that internal reward. And they have to be able to learn those skill sets now. Because not everybody deserves a trophy, those kinds of things, they have to learn to that you're not going to win all the time, you're going to lose, you're going to fall, you get knocked down seven times stand up eight, you know, those guys those sayings that you hear, and that they've got to just know that over time to really be that self reliant on their own abilities.

Jen Rafferty 08:11
Right. And understanding that okay, fine, you didn't get a trophy. But that doesn't define your self worth. Right. That's the message.

Dan Wolfe 08:17
Yeah, that like, even though the Eagles lost the Super Bowl last week, everybody knows Jalen Hertz had a great game. So you can't take that away from him yet he didn't walk away with the trophy. But I think he earned a lot of respect around the nation and the world just for what he was able to do. So it's those kinds of things. And I hope they have those kinds of examples out there too, to highlight that, because it's always well, who got this and who got that, and there's so much more to it.

Jen Rafferty 08:43
Yeah. And I think that's it as the adults in these spaces, we then get to be the examples for them by embodying these practices. And you mentioned something about the challenges to kind of implementation of a lot of these programs, or these ideas or a culture shift. And of course, resources is a really big problem in a lot of school. That's just like a pragmatic problem of resources, whether it's materials or training, or social workers, or support. And I think there's a lot of resistance to SEL. And one, there's a lot of resistance to SEL which we can talk about too. But like there in this particular case, teachers especially are resistant because like oh, well, now, this is another thing on my plate. And you're telling me now I have to do what on top of all of the other things that I have to do. How do you navigate that with your staff and your school?

Dan Wolfe 09:33
Well, one of the things and this was something that I learned from talking with John Norlane on character strong is that Sel is the plate you'd mentioned the plate and everything in SEL is the plate and that is what sets everything else up. And I mean, what I tried to do is tell them that it's not another thing first of all, because it's you know, we talk about that I try to bring current data trends like it could be discipline referrals and things like that, which are always have that negative connotation. And we look at, well, you know, if there's out of school suspensions and things like that they're not in the classroom, they can never learn those skills and things that they're always out of the classroom, just because they're in fifth grade, they are still a child, they still don't have the skill sets, and they might not have the consistency in and out of the classroom, and you need to develop that. And that's where you're gonna see the most growth is when you work on that, like, we have community circles, designated within our block of time during the school day, at 20 minutes at the end of the day, where it kind of brings up topics and things that you know, just off the cuff topics of things about like, what are you going to do this weekend, just because it's a community within their classroom. So we try to tell them that that's their family, just like sunray is a family, their classroom is their own family and building those relationship skills and being able to have conversations to be able to problem solve. And you can tie these things into when you're having your history lessons in your, you're reading different books within language arts, or solving math problems, you can tie it into whatever and make those connections for them. Because all those subjects, though they're separated out, they're all interconnected, you just have to show them that pathway. And I think it's just giving them the why and being real real with the staff and just saying, what are your frustration because we do surveys and things like that we even do PBIS at our school in our district to positive behavior intervention systems. So we do a survey at once a quarter or once a semester to get feedback. And then based on that, we design the supports around that and say, This is your voice saying you need these things? Well, this is going to help you there. And we go ahead and not just go with one certain support system of SEL, we look at what different things, it's like a buffet menu, you pick what you need, that's going to best fit the needs of your school, this is going to look different everywhere.

Jen Rafferty 12:01
For sure, it'll look different from year to year sometimes, too. But I think that's it, you know, doing it in a way that is responsive is so important to making these programs effective, because so many times the idea is just like check the box and like, oh, okay, we've done SEL now check, and it's done. And that's not getting the benefits of it, and you're actually perpetuating the problems of people feeling overwhelmed, exhausted, having initiative whiplash, you know, being responsive to especially your teachers, we do this for our kids, right, we check the data and we look for where the gaps are. And we find supports to fill those gaps and to help them move through whatever you want to move through. But that needs to be taken on such a bigger scale to what your teachers need, what your staff needs, what your front office staff needs, what your mentor and mentee programs need. You know, all of those things require not just putting an imposing a program on it, but taking the time to really listen to what their needs are, and then giving the support that they actually need, what not what you think they need.

Dan Wolfe 13:01
Right, and it comes down to the implementation. A program will never fix anything. It's about that belief system, what's progress monitored, gets implemented, it's having those checkpoints along that way that I always say an education is something I learned a long time ago, intentional planning leads intentional student outcomes. And it can also lead to intentional teacher outcomes or school outcomes. That's just something you just have those checks and balances along the way. It's also how we ask questions to the students instead of what's wrong with you what happened to you, it's a big difference between just those words right there. And the second one is about the support, you're not making accusations. You just want to look at it through their lens. And it said, Really, it's the out of the five areas, that social awareness piece of being able to look at it through someone else's lens to to know whether they're coming from whether it's staff or students. Yeah,

Jen Rafferty 13:56
it's so important. You know, we talked about kind of internal resistance. And I want to talk about external resistance, because social emotional learning has become very politicized. And especially you being an administrator in Florida, I imagine that that is a little bit tricky. So I do want to talk about it for a little bit is how do you navigate this? Because it's challenging for people who are understanding the value of what this is about connection to humanity? And it seems that in some places, it's an uphill battle. How do you navigate that?

Dan Wolfe 14:25
Well, first and foremost, I let everybody know you can only control what you can control. That's what we're given. And as you said, I am in Florida and Florida is usually a hot topic state with a lot of things. We did recognize SEL a few years ago, it's now been changed to academic and social behaviors. And in education, things change names, but usually everything underneath stays the same. It still has those five competencies right underneath that it just doesn't say the SEL. I joke with people because you know, I have my book and everything becoming the change too. And I said, Well, in 49 out of 50 states, it's recognized as an SEL book except in the state I live in, just jokingly. But it really, we're still having those same foundational things happen, its- we're not just using that name within there. Because I think what comes to a lot of things is not everybody takes the time to understand things, when something is new, and what the purpose behind it and we're so test driven as a society, that that's all that matters, where we rank in everything else. But I'd love to see the data where we rank in the areas of mental health and things for our kids, I'm sure we're not the elite, state or country, in comparison to everybody else. And I think, if we don't focus on that, and have that balance, it's gonna get a lot worse with things. I mean, look at things in society right now and how things are in, again, the adults out there, in Washington, and everywhere else, they're supposed to be the role models, and the kids see that too. Again, kids are watching everywhere, when they see two political sides disagreeing and can't come to consensus, and then gums the name calling or whatever else, that's such a poor example for what's being shown to them. And it just sends a mixed messages and I think confuses the kids. And it's not fair to them, because we're supposed to be building a future for them. And I think we're we're doing a disservice as a society. And I mean, we still have those that are advocating for SEL, and are gonna continue. I mean, even though we don't say SEL, here, I still say it. And I also use academic and social behaviors, I will use them interchangeably because it is the same thing. And we know, just like, we went to school, for our certifications, and everything else our degrees, that same as what doctors and everything else when they do their prescriptions and things we have that expertise, or like, I'd like to think so to be able to see, you know, yes, we can't get to the academics well, right now, we can't keep them in the classroom because they can't self regulate. So we've got to help them with that, as teachers, we're going to do what an educators we're going to do all we can, because that's what our mission in life is, is to serve others.

Jen Rafferty 17:05
Yeah, for sure. And in doing that, embodying this work, here's how we're able to serve them even more. You mentioned kind of alluded to it, although you didn't use these words about our societal moral compass. And I know that's something that you have written quite a lot about. And I was just having another conversation actually, with somebody else on the podcast about the moral compass. And it seems as if people have a very different idea of what their moral compass is. And so when we're talking about moral compass, there's a lot of assumptions here, like, you know, we're on this podcast together, you know, I know your work, you know, my work, I have an assumption that you and I have this general idea of what our moral compass is. But there are also people who don't share those same value sets and necessarily have that same moral compass. And for me, as someone who perpetually wears rose colored glasses, unapologetically, I have a hard time reconciling that. And I want to know, how do you come about and come across, in communicating the moral compass, and how you kind of help guide people in a direction that benefits everybody?

Dan Wolfe 18:20
Well, with the moral compass, I believe, each one of us has our own internal one that helps guide us through life, and really, how things kind of came to be with the moral compass, and was through the work that I was doing with the SEL standards. And I came across a quote that I had read by Michelle Obama, that said, I have learned that as long as I hold fast to my beliefs and values and follow my own moral compass, then the only expectations I need to live up to are my own. And it was her own moral compass. And that's where the vision of the moral compass, when I think of a compass is just like, well, you know, get lost in the woods, or whatever it guides you to, it helps you find your way. And our own moral compass, my compass my is different than yours and different than someone else's, and how I related it to SEL and everything is at the epicenter of it is the self awareness. And then each of the cardinal directions are the other four of the self management, social awareness, relationship skills and responsible decision making. I first I never tried to push it on anybody as far as I and I'm always open to hear what they have to say, because it's gonna be different. And actuality I want it to be, it doesn't have to be the same. We all follow our own morals and values of what we think is going to be our best authentic self. And doesn't matter how we get there, what we choose to go ahead and do and sometimes within those areas, we rely on one more than the other, depending on what experiences or whatever we're going through at life at that given moment. But we're ultimately trying to become our best self. So to me, it doesn't matter how we get there. It's really just respecting and honoring others and explaining our perspective that they just agree. And I said, Yeah, I don't really agree with it. That's great. That's fine. Because to me, by me acknowledging that I'm still holding up to what I believe it is, but then also respecting someone else's, and their belief around it.

Jen Rafferty 20:13
Yeah. And I think that's an important piece of this too, is because we don't always have to agree that that's ridiculous. And in fact, our world would not be the beautiful dynamic space that it is if we all agreed about everything. However, it's in those disagreements, how can we navigate it in a way that really connects back to our humanity, and not meeting people at their pain points in a way where we're not actually able to move forward and see paths our nose because we are in so much pain of our own beliefs and digging our heels in the ground, you know? And so how do we then get a little bit deeper and then reconnect? So I want to ask now, this kind of goes into your work that you've been doing with your blog with your book, talk a little bit about that, and how it's kind of evolved and where your work is taking you now.

Dan Wolfe 21:00
Alright, so like I mentioned earlier in the podcast about being a part of that great work that we did K-12 with SEL standards. And it was after reading that Michelle Obama quote, that I thought about the our moral compass. And originally before it became the becoming the change name that it is now for the blog, it was called our moral compass. And then I had changed it when I actually wrote the book. But what I decided to do, I've always been a big fan of quotes. And I believe that with the different quotes that come across our lives, we read it one time at a certain point in our lives, and it means something and then if we were to pick up that same quote, a year from now, or 10 years from now, it's going to mean something completely different. Because of we're at a different place in our lives. So I thought about, well, how can I best go ahead, I'd love to write what that quote means to me what on that daily quote, and then how it applies to one of the five areas of SEL, as well as our moral compass. So that's how it kind of started in December of 2019. And then I went ahead and February of 2020, decided to make that into a podcast, just recording on my phone, just those same things that same blogs that I've written, and then just record it and put it out there on like, Apple podcasts or Spotify, anybody that might need it. And then I actually have a friend of mine that actually contributes to the music now shout out to Todd for contributing that, you know, so I always, it's just great to go. And it's just fun. It's fun to do that. And then as it renews the pandemic hit March 2020. So when I wasn't zooming, you know, throughout the day for school, and everything I was then going ahead, I said, You know what, I want to do something more. I said, I've always dreamed about, you know, writing a book, I said, this seems like the perfect time to go ahead and do that. So that's what I did, what I did is I created a self assessment around the five areas of, you know, the Oracle, and also the five elements around SEL. And I want- when people take the assessment, they have to be their authentic selves, they have to be vulnerable, we tell our kids all the time to be vulnerable. But if we're not doing it ourselves, that's not good. We gotta model I you better model what we what we do. So within that, what that will come and tell you is you have your strengths and your limitations. I don't ever call them weaknesses, because I call them limitations because I once heard, the limitations we have are the only things that we put on ourselves. So how the book is designed is I also incorporated some of the blogs that I've written previously, I call them compass checks along the way to kind of break up the chapters. But what they're able to do is if you remember those books, choose your own adventure that were written in the 70s 80s and early 90s. And you chose your different pathways and everything. I wanted to make the book, not something that you had to read in order that you can go ahead. So each chapter that's devoted to a certain area, what you're able to do as you read, you could start off with your strength, like let's say a self awareness, you read about self awareness based on those questions that you had answered, because it gives you tips and techniques and things you can readily apply to improve in that area, if that's your focus. And then at the end of the chapter, it says, okay, you've got these five different pathways to go because you can read the same chapter again, if you wanted to, to just get a second dose of it. Or you can choose a different competency to focus on you can jump to decision making, if that's a limitation that's at the end of the book, or and then you can go back to the beginning. And the beauty with the self assessment is you can take it numerous times, because you're going to be at different stages. You can take it a year from now, five years from now, and it'll be interesting, you will see, I'm sure there's gonna be shifts because based on what you're doing at that moment in time in your life, and it's not just the career part. It's also what's happening personally. So that's what the whole premise is behind it and just something a book that can be used time and time again, not just a once and done because at the cover of the book for the becoming a change is a butterfly because you know we're always evolving just like you go from a caterpillar to a butterfly. You're become seeing that change each and every day and we're, we're never going to ever get there. We should never be satisfied. Like, I've made it. We're good, I'm perfect and everything because that's just perfection is an illusion. You know, practice never makes perfect. It makes improvement. But yeah, so that's pretty much what I have been doing. And I continue to write the blog and the I've got like, about 850 blogs written and about, you know, close to 700 episodes just recorded. And again, I do it for fun. I put it out on the social medias, if it resonates with somebody great. If not, that's okay, too. It's just nice to have that time to. It said, it's like my journaling, I guess is the best way I can say it.

Jen Rafferty 25:38
Yeah, yeah, that is a beautiful thing to just put out into the world. That's wonderful. So I have to ask you, you know, this question, I asked everybody on the podcast, what is your dream for the future of education?

Dan Wolfe 25:49
I think the dream for me for education is that it continues to evolve. Because in all honesty, in my 20 plus years is in it's in need of an extreme makeover, like the shows you see for homes and everything else, because I feel like we've been doing the same things for over 100 years or so. And things have changed with our kids, the needs have changed. Whether it's title one non title one that doesn't matter. It's I don't know if education has necessarily evolved with the times, we used to be ahead of the curve, but at least we thought we were. And I think we're severely behind, like, how can we use social media to enhance things that then education has shown the power of what it can do? Not what the detriment that it does, and how to have different pathways for the kids. I mean, we have it at some of our schools, which is great, and things like that. But what about having it for all the schools, we always talk about college and career ready, but college is always at the forefront. Not everybody's going to be college bound. And that's okay. It's because we do need the other workers and things like that, that we need the mechanics, we need them to be happy with what they're doing. And if that's not going to college, and that's doing being in the other fields, so be it we need to celebrate that and help them on those pathways and make sure that they don't drop out of school by they want to drop out by seventh grade, present those things early on, give them the why they're going. Because I feel like sometimes they're going because they know they have to go just like some people if they're going to work because they have to go to work, but it's not their passion. They don't have their why or whatever other than pay the bills and loses meaning. I think we'd need to bring that back for education and bring back that meaning. So that's my dream for education that it's given the respect it rightfully deserves. But then I think at the same time finding a way as educators to help us earn that respect, and really show the value and what it can do.

Jen Rafferty 27:49
Yeah, and Extreme Makeover Education Edition is definitely a show that I will watch.

Dan Wolfe 27:55
Alright, great. Well, if anybody is interested in co-hosting, we'll get that started.

Jen Rafferty 27:59
Yeah, so you know, forget watching. Let's be the host and the stars of that show.

Dan Wolfe 28:03
Perfect. Perfect.

Jen Rafferty 28:05
Yeah. Where's TLC? We need to get them in here to show here. Okay, well, that was awesome. Thank you so much for that beautiful dream and sharing that with us. So how do people get in touch with you?

Dan Wolfe 28:15
Ah, so I try to be on many of the social media sites as I can. My biggest one is probably Twitter. My handle is surf, lead, inspire. And with the surf part, it's without the E and like, I tell everybody, it's not that I don't know how to spell. It's just I'm limited and characters for my handle. So that's just to put that out there. As a disclaimer, you know, I'm on LinkedIn, anything you just googled Dan Wolfe for, you know, on all those Instagram serve, lead and inspire always is another one there, Facebook, any of those platforms? I'm not on a TikTok or anything. I'm not that hip yet with all that. But you know, I'm getting there.

Jen Rafferty 28:52
There's hope for you.

Dan Wolfe 28:54
Yeah that's right. Yeah, I'm still becoming the change.

Jen Rafferty 28:57
That's right, exactly. And we'll make sure we have all those links to your social media sites and your book in the show notes used to be super easy for people to get in touch. Dan, thank you so much for your time and your expertise today and sharing it with the Take Notes audience.

Dan Wolfe 29:10
All right. Well, I thank you so much for having me on Jen. I really appreciate it enjoyed this conversation very much.

Jen Rafferty 29:15
Likewise. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, please make sure you subscribe, share with a friend and we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Why embracing your authentic self is the key to unlocking success and peace with Stacey McFarland

Do you feel your success isn't enough? And as you keep chasing it, at the end of the day it still doesn't feel satisfying, right?

It’s time to redefine success, and today, I'm joined by a special guest, Stacy McFarland, a mindset coach and founder of Soul Studio.

In our discussion, we explore the often overlooked truth that success is an internal journey.

Stacy shared her transformative journey of self-discovery, highlighting the pivotal role self-love and authenticity play in our lives. We're peeling back the layers on why recognizing our own worth is essential and how setting clear boundaries is an act of self-respect.

And, as we all strive to connect and support each other, we'll discuss the impact of simply holding space for others, understanding that sometimes, being present is more powerful than any advice we could offer.

Tune in as we unpack these insights and more, learning how to embrace the journey toward a fulfilling and authentically successful life.

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Stacey:

Stacey McFarland embodies the power of calm. Her own personal journey of growing, healing and connecting to her true self was the unstoppable force behind the career change to mindset coach and founder of Soul Studio. Her belief that Success is an inside job helps women to finally stop focusing and chasing external circumstances and tap into their souls to create success from a place of ease, peace, and compassion.

Stacey was awarded, by the local Chamber of Commerce, Business Person of the Year. This award was given to her in 2020 during the uncertain times of the pandemic shutdown. She has been praised for her ability to maintain an upbeat and positive attitude while pivoting her business in a new direction that not only helped her business survive, it thrived!

Stacey is a sought-after Transformational Speaker and Mindset Coach. She is passionate about helping female leaders navigate their journey to achieving it all while stressing less. Her high level mindset coaching includes body regulation and is proven to work 100% of the time. Her clients have next level results in their business and personal lives.

Website: soulstudio.us
FB: Soul Studio
Instagram: @soul_studio.us
LinkedIn: Stacey McFarland

8 Steps to Tackle (and Triumph) Teacher Burnout with Amber Harper

Feeling burned out from the classroom?

Remember that navigating burnout is an ongoing journey and not a quick fix. The good news? You can initiate positive change today.

On episode 2 of the Take Notes podcast, I sit down with Amber Harper, the brilliant mind behind Burned-In Teacher, and together we unpack the world of teacher burnout.

Amber shared her personal experience of burnout and how she turned her life around after a public breakdown. Her journey is a testament to the power of self-awareness and intentional change.

Discover her 8-step Burned-In process, a guide for teachers to address and conquer burnout.

Tune in and find out more practical advice and actionable steps to help you navigate and overcome burnout

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Amber:
Amber Harper is a Kindergarten Teacher, author of Hacking Teacher Burnout, podcaster, and Teacher Burnout Coach. She gives struggling teachers a path to follow as they navigate their way out of burnout by helping them grow through their burnout and take their next best steps toward what they want from their career in education and in life. You can learn more about her and the services she offers at www.burnedinteacher.com.

Connect with Amber:

Website:https://www.burnedinteacher.com/
IG: @burnedinteacher

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:01
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities, and as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those fillings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and Founder of Empowered Educator and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 00:43
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I am here with the wonderful Amber Harper. And we are talking all things burned out, burned in, teaching and how we can create sustainable habits for ourselves so we can have a healthy longevity in this career that we love. So thank you for being here, Amber, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today.

Amber Harper 01:07
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited as well.

Jen Rafferty 01:09
So let's just dive right in. I want to know, how did Burned-In Teacher come to be? What was the story? How did this happen?

Amber Harper 01:17
Such a great question, I will try to answer it very quickly because as with any journey, like there's not a quick and fast answer. I actually built Burned-In Teacher, bought the domain back in 2016. But I truly believe that Burned-In Teacher started in 2007 whenever I started teaching. Because from the time that I had my own classroom, until I had my infamous breakdown that I'm very, very upfront and honest about anytime I talk about the Burned-In teacher journey. I really rode that roller coaster of burnout and like a lot of teachers accepted it as my reality and told myself, this is just the way it's going to be. So I taught first grade, second grade, third grade, and throughout those years, those first eight years, I would ride these tremendous highs and then I would dip into a tremendous low, and then I would get back on the horse, And I would say this year is going to be different. But I never got back to that place where I felt like I was truly happy and fulfilled doing what it was that I did. And I look back at it now, especially after doing the research and the work that I've done now for seven, eight years. I was very misaligned. And I did not have the tools and the strategies that I really needed to create this sustainable career in education that I really wanted so badly. And I was having terrible negative self talk, the narratives in my head, were just dragging me down the conversations I was having with other teachers were dragging me down. And I didn't know that there was any other way to feel about teaching that how I felt, which was overwhelmed and frustrated and defeated every single day for multiple reasons, whether it be a toxic work environment with my grade level or my administration or my students behavior or my workload. You know, overworking myself, you know, I was all three types of burnout, which we can talk about later if you'd like.

Amber Harper 03:05
But it finally came to a head in 2014 when I had a very public and very embarrassing mental and emotional breakdown in front of my teacher friends, and there were nine of us we were a very large team of third grade teachers. And I had gone home to let our new puppy out of his kennel to go to the bathroom. And he had crapped in his kennel. And it was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was hysterical. And I was only about three minutes away from the school. So when I drove back to school, I was doing everything that I could to get myself calmed back down because I had to teach for another hour and a half. But I absolutely couldn't. And I recognize it now that that was really the moment that I realized that I had lost control. I had lost I felt like I had given up all of the control over my life, not just in my professional life, but in my personal life. There were all of these things that were happening that I continued to shove down, and finally they just exploded. And when I went back into the school, I was in such a horrific state that my husband who had worked at the school that I worked in for almost our entire teaching careers. They thought he had died. Like these were friends of ours so they were like my friend Jane, she goes is Jeff okay? And I was like Oh! like I she goes you've got to be kidding me. Like she was always my very brash like in your face like she was like, You're seriously losing your mind over all of her poop like it was very underwhelming, right? And I am fully admitted that it was ridiculous that I was losing my mind over this.

Amber Harper 03:05
But it was such an indication there was so much more going on under the surface that I was not addressing and that I was not aware of. And it was in that moment like that is my rock bottom moment. I call it my Ollie moment. That was my dog's name at the time. And I feel like we all come to those moments, and that's where I really believe that that was my turnaround. That was my transformation moment where I was like, I have to stop waiting on someone to save me, and I cannot continue to live like this, and I won't.

Amber Harper 05:12
And so that's where I really started to dive into some research. I didn't start Burned-In Teacher until a few years later. But that's where I finally took responsibility for my burnout. That is where my life really changed. And not just professionally, but personally, that is where I started to be honest, and be upfront with myself about what it was that was making me unhappy, and what was in my control and what wasn't in my control. And like I told you, it's a long story, but I'm tried trying to make it quick. But I think for a lot of teachers that are struggling with burnout, it doesn't just start in one day, it started weeks or months or years ago. And we were just so fogged over with our lack of clarity for what our values are and what we wanted and where we were and what happened and what our triggers are, and, and we're so different with what our triggers are. So it was a really pivotal moment in my career that fall of 2014.

Jen Rafferty 06:06
Well, thank you so much for sharing, it is an important story that I know resonates with so many people, as I'm sure you have now experienced in the work that you do, too. And there's so many things that I want to dive into regarding what you had just said. But I think the first thing that I want to touch on is that you do not have to wait for a catastrophe in order to change your choices. So I think what happens is we hear these stories, which, unfortunately, are very common. And we think to ourselves, well, we need to hit rock bottom to gain that clarity. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about how we can start changing now that you don't have to wait until you have a breakdown or a heart attack, or any sort of moments where you have this crossroads of things are not working anymore.

Amber Harper 06:59
Or like physical, visceral reaction. And unfortunately, generally, this was not my first emotional moment. I had had meetings where I had to remove myself because I would start to have a panic attack. And I would be hyperventilating. And I'd have to remove myself so that I wouldn't do that in front of people I would cry to and from school. This was years, years, but I kept saying no, this is a career that you went to school for it. This is what you and Jeff, my husband and I had a baby very early, right out of high school, we dreamed of becoming teachers, getting jobs having a house, and here we were, we had all of these things that we had worked so hard for. And I kept telling myself, Amber stop being so ungrateful. You have everything that you've wanted everything that you and your husband have wanted for so long.

Amber Harper 07:49
And that's where I needed to identify that negative self talk, and to admit to myself that you are having conversations with yourself where you are backing yourself into a corner. And you need to start talking openly about these conversations that you're having in your head because those were not the conversations I was having Jen. I was having conversations about our crappy administration, and this crazy workload that we had, and all of this new curriculum and all of these things that were out of my control. Those were much easier for me to place blame on and not that those things aren't hard or that they don't suck sometimes because work is work, and that's part of being a working adult in any environment, not just in education. But I was so busy projecting my frustration outwardly, rather than processing it internally. And I really needed to come to terms with that, probably in year two of my teaching career. I even started on my career with a very toxic grade level. And that first year, I took things very personally and then that second year, I was like, You know what, I don't care what they have to say, I'm just gonna go be kind, I'm gonna go do me, I'm gonna, you know, have a good year, and it still allowed all of that negativity inside. And I would just talk nasty. And I would just, you know, did it over here, you know, it's just, it's over here. And that's really where I needed to be like, No, Amber's like, you can't control them.

Amber Harper 09:14
You just go to school, be a good person, and do you and you don't have to make them like, they don't have to like you. That's up to them. You know, you're not a bad person. You're not a bad teacher. You're really good teacher, and you're a good person. Right? But those weren't the conversations I was having with myself. I was thinking nasty about everybody and everything rather than thinking about what my truth was.

Jen Rafferty 09:38
Right? And those have to do with a lot of these tools and strategies that we don't learn that I want to talk about in a minute. But I do want to talk about two other things before we even go there. First thing that you said is really important I want to underscore is that so often, we do this gratitude bypass where we're like, but we're supposed to be happy we have the life at least I have a job, at least I'm healthy. And I should be grateful for these things. But what happens is, when we do this bypass, we are completely leapfrogging over the emotions that need to be processed and honored and released, and so we don't. And I want to be clear here, and I know that you know this, but just for clarity for the people listening that this isn't about not being grateful, this isn't about gratitude, in and of itself is extremely important. And there are a million benefits for having gratitude, and practicing gratitude. But this is different. This is about glossing over the shitty emotions that you may be feeling in the moments in the name of gratitude, that is very unhealthy. And it comes to this point that I want to talk about here about understanding that you are worthy of happiness. That you are inherently worthy of anything that you want, despite everything that might look like you have everything, but if you don't feel good, you are worthy of feeling good. So I want to ask, what was that moment like for you, when you finally realized I am worthy of happiness?

Amber Harper 11:16
Oh, my goodness, I love that question so much, it almost makes me emotional. For so long, I mean, from the time that my husband, Jeff, and I, you know, realized that we were going to have a baby, he was a freshman in college, I was a senior in high school. We together, like we had our heads down and we built this linear plan, we'll do this, then we'll do that, we're going to go to college, we're going to get our degrees, we're going to get out of this apartment, we're going to get our teaching jobs, we're going to teach. And that's where there was like a stop sign. It was like, that's all we need. And in my head, I had this plan that was very linear, very neat, very organized, and that was what was going to make me happy. And in that moment, that pivotal moment, I realized that this is going to be messy. And change is messy and changing your mind is unsexy. But there's no linear, like nobody says that you have to have a linear path, especially nowadays. And I came to the realization was so and one specific thing that comes to mind is, you know, I had this breakdown in late September, early October of 2014. Sorts of things that I started questioning, like, do I really want to live here? Like, why do we like I started asking all these questions, why am I doing this? Why am I here? Not like, why am I here in this life? Like, why am I working in the school? If I'm so unhappy. Why are we living in this community? When it doesn't really fit our values? Why are we in this house? And all of these things, all of my answers were because it just has happened. It's just where we have ended up. And we had made all these decisions based on our linear path, we get a teaching job, we buy a house. And we finally and I say we, my husband and I, because this really was a team effort, we started to realize like, we can be intentional about the choices that we make, just because we teach here now, doesn't mean that that has to be the place that we stay. If that's not where we're happy. Just because we bought this house here does not mean that we have to stay. If the community does not offer the things that we value as a family. You know, so we actually picked up and move like we sold our house. I did, I've left teaching twice and returned twice. So I'm like the poster child, for like, figuring out this messy, this messy life right. And at first, I felt a little ashamed by it.

Amber Harper 13:46
But now I'm really proud of it because I am really happy now like I'm back in the classroom. And I couldn't be happier. But it's because I started to think about the intentionality behind our decisions. And I became really disciplined and continuing to check in with myself about, okay, how am I feeling? All right, I'm not feeling like these last couple of days, these last couple of weeks. I'm feeling like really crummy. Okay, so what's triggering that? And that's where it kind of my burned in process comes because Burned in Teacher, is not just the name of this website, and you know, the book and you know, everything that I do, it really is an eight step process that I created for myself because I needed those checks and balances to keep myself aligned with who I wanted to be and the life I wanted to live.

Jen Rafferty 14:30
Yeah, and that responsibility that you have to co-create your reality is a huge awakening. Because I'm sure you experienced this too. When you tell somebody and you show them and guide them to realizing that, you are responsible, or your circumstances, right. You're you're responsible for your reality that can be activating because of all of those external things that you were mentioning before. It's so much easier to look at the external things and point to them and say, but if only this were different, then I would feel better. But what being responsible means, is that you actually are empowered to meet the moment with all of the things that are lifee. Because life is gonna life, like that's just like that. Yeah. And your responsibility lies in you choosing who you want to be in those moments when the rubber meets the road. And so I would love for you to tell us a little bit about what are those eight steps? What does it mean to be a Burned in Teacher?

Amber Harper 15:35
Yeah, thank you for asking. So the burden process is eight steps that I created to kind of move through, especially initially when you first learn what they are. And there are all these little mini sub-steps within each of these, right? But I want to touch on something that you already unintentionally brought up, which is that activation period, right? So in addition to these eight steps, I have stages, there's a success path there.

Amber Harper 15:59
So stage zero is totally burned out where you're just like, I'm done, like, rarely do I have the opportunity to work with someone, whether it be through reading my book, or going through the course or doing one coaching, whatever that is, with someone who's at a stage zero, because they were me, right before that breakdown, like I didn't want to hear anything different. I didn't want to talk about it. I just was miserable. And there was nobody that was going to talk me, I wasn't ready to have those conversations.

Amber Harper 16:29
Stage one is where you'll listen. But this girl is crazy. Like she has no idea how hard my life is, there's something special about her. She's privileged in some way where she has these choices that I do not, she doesn't understand how hard it is to work for this principle, etc. Stage two is that activation stage, stage two is where you reach a point. And that was me on that late fall day where I was ready, I was ready to do anything that anybody had to suggest to me to not feel this way anymore. And that's when I started to lean in and started to listen and started to learn and started to make changes. And that's the perfect place for me to meet somebody. And like you said earlier, it doesn't have to be that physical breakdown moment. But it's that moment when people are like, I want to teach, but I can't keep doing it like this anymore. You know, or maybe I don't know if I want to teach or not. But I'm tired of living in this limbo of do I want to do this or don't I want to do this, because that's okay too, right. So that moment that stage two is where people are like, Alright, tell me more, like you tell me what to do, and I'll try it. I'll try, it doesn't mean, I'll stick with it, but I'll try it. And so that's where we can begin to go through this process together. So B stands for begin where you are. And that is really looking at what has happened in the past to figure out what brought you to where you are. Because if you look at a map, and you don't know where you are, you certainly aren't going to be able to get to where you want to go. So it's really reflecting on what has brought you to this moment. Step two is to understand your teacher brand. So of course, I'm spelling burned in here. So you understand your teacher brand. So this is really looking at your brand as a teacher, and the legacy that you're leaving in your teaching life and your personal life. So this is really an as I know, you know, this is so important.

Amber Harper 18:16
This is the self awareness part where if you don't start, like, self awareness is our number one superpower. If we want to change our lives, we have got to be super aware of our thoughts, our beliefs, our words, our actions, or habits that are either keeping us stuck in this burnout, or the things that we need to change and, or the things that we need to change to move us through it, and out of it. We can't just drink more water, we can't just get more sleep, we can't just numb ourselves, you know, in any form or fashion to move through this. Like we have to be hyper aware of what we're saying doing thinking every single day. And that's a really hard step, because then you start when you start to pay attention, you start to realize your tone, you start to realize how you are or not taking care of yourself and your classroom and your home and your car and like, and this is not superficial kind of stuff. This is like, you know, your biography becomes your biology, and your thoughts become your life. Like if you think that you're worth nothing, then you take care of things like they're not worth anything. So this is a huge this is one of my favorite steps.

Jen Rafferty 19:24
They also want to point out singer that this one ties into that responsibility piece.

Amber Harper 19:28
Absolutely. You are accepting full responsibility for you and your life. 100%. And when I say that there's no blame and there's no shame there. There's a difference between blaming and shaming and owning up to it and saying, You know what, I'm here. I'm not blaming anybody. I'm not blaming myself. This is just my reality right now. And it doesn't have to stay this way. And the only person who's going to change my life is me, which is such great news.

Jen Rafferty 19:55
It's amazing

Amber Harper 19:56
news. It's like the best news because it makes it sound a table Pull, like, I don't have to wait for anybody. I don't have to wait for a new principal, I don't have to wait for a new president, I don't have to wait for a new curriculum, I don't have to wait for a different class. I can make changes right now, to change my life. So ours reflect on your challenges. So this is the step where you really start to look deeply at what's challenging, challenging you why it's challenging you whether or not it's within your control. And what possible solutions are becoming more of a solution seeker, rather than a challenge seeker. And we're really good at finding the mistakes, we're really good at finding the challenges and the hardships because teachers are fixers, you know, and naturally, humans, we are wired to look for the negative, right? keep us safe. However, we have to learn how to harness that negativity bias that we have. And so this is not about being positive Pollyanna, every day, right? But this is about you saying, Nope, I'm not gonna bitch any more about my administrator, I'm not gonna complain any more about the state of education in the United States, like, that is a waste of my time and a waste of my energy, what I'm gonna do is focus on what I can control in my role, whatever that is, whether you're a school counselor, a principal, a teacher, special ed, general ed, high school, whatever that is, I'm going to focus on what is directly impacting me and my students every single day, or me and my teachers, if you're a coach, and is nurture your strengths and habits. So this is getting really real about what you're doing morning through the evening, to either add to your strengths, or take away from them. Because this is a part where we learn a little bit about our personality, we dig a little deeper into what makes us us. This is where I take some personality assessments. This is where I one day I was walking on the treadmill was like February of 2016, maybe. And I took the Strengths Assessment. And I'm like, sobbing. I'm like, Oh my gosh, all these years, I thought these were bad things. And this is actually wonderful. Like, my number one strength is futuristics. I love looking. I'm a visionary. Like, I'm all about planning for the future. And there were so many times that I was like, beating myself up because I'm like, why can't you just focus on now? Like, why are you always like, I was beating myself up about that. And I'm like, No, that's a good thing. Like, I love looking into the future and thinking about what the awesomeness that's to come. So this is all about learning what makes you you and how you can build on those strengths. So you're not tearing yourself down, you're building yourself up. So that's en. And the next step is extend your reach and possibilities. So this is about, you know, addressing those hardships, the things that are hard for you, and extending out a hand and saying, Hey, I need help with this over here. So that's whether it's reaching out to their teacher or listening to a podcast, find a YouTube channel, you know, learning about you, Jen, reading my book, you know, listening to your TED Talk. This is where you're like out and you're seeking those solutions, like you're finding your people and you're finding the information that's going to help you because you don't have to do this alone. No, that's huge. You don't have to have all the answers. But we live in a society where we can learn anything, we can go to YouTube University and learn anything we want. For free a lot of times, right. And in tandem, we're also starting because we're starting to build those self that self awareness, we're really paying attention to our habits and our thoughts and our beliefs. We're also going to start remembering what makes us happy, like what brings us joy, anyway, and we're starting to bring that joy into our daily life or into our weekly life. We don't have to be our summer Self Only in the summer. We can do the things that we enjoy all year long. And that looks different for everybody. Everybody's in a different season, whether you have kids, you don't have kids, you're an empty nester, you're brand new baby teacher, we're all very different. So this is this looks and sounds very different for people but helping you to believe that you are capable and worthy of living a really rich life outside of your classroom and that you do not have to sacrifice yourself and believe that as a teacher, you are a martyr to the rest of your life.

Jen Rafferty 24:05
Yeah, it's not sustainable. And that thinking has led us to where we are now.

Amber Harper 24:09
Yeah, 100% 100%. But I can't just tell people that are at a stage one who have not done the work of the rest of the steps. First, I can't tell them that they're capable and worthy of bringing daily joy into their life. If they haven't built up their self awareness if they haven't started to address the possible solutions, if they haven't started to understand that they are a wonderful person, they have all these beautiful strengths. And so that's why this process is so helpful. And then the next step is determine your long term goal. So we start to decide like is your long term goal to stay in education? Do you have a long term goal to leave? Like is it time for you to start thinking about possibly leaving like both of those decisions are completely honorable? Just because you're a teacher? Let you know if I'm talking about myself just because I teach kindergarten right now. If I'm really unhappy, it could be that I need to change in grade level, it could be that I need to change. But maybe I'm not getting along with my administration, and I've tried to do things to mend a relationship, but it's just not working. Maybe I need to move to another school, maybe you need to move to another district, maybe you need to quit teaching altogether. All of those things come from you, all of those decisions come from you. So this is really starting to think about, you know, I really want to keep teaching, I just don't think that I want to teach here, or in Jeff and I's case, we don't want to live in this community anymore, we're gonna move. So we put our house on the market. And we sold it in three days on Facebook, like, if you would have told me six months ago that we were going to do that, like, I would have been like, You're crazy, we could never do that. So you start to challenge your neighbors, and really think about how those are keeping you stuck. And then after determine your long term goals, we start to initiate lasting change. A goal without a plan is just a wish, right? That's Tony Robbins. So we start to build in monthly, weekly, daily actions, like we break these goals down into manageable tasks, and we bring them into our daily weekly lives. So we see those changes happen, these things are not going to happen overnight. It this is a marathon. This is not a sprint, you know, it's just like anything that you do in your life. That's important. It takes time, there's no quick fix for burnout. It really does take a vision, planning, discipline and intention. And that is what we're lacking so much when we're clouded by that burnout. We have no vision for the future. We can't see past the next hour. We have no discipline because we don't even know what we're working for. And then being intentional. Like that's that's what brought me down as I was not being intentional about my decisions of whether or not I said yes or no to things. I would just say yes. Because I don't want you to be mad at me. You know, I was had that people pleaser syndrome. And now you're being really intentional about what you say yes and no to because you've got these other things going on in your life. Like after this interview, Jen, I'm going home and I'm riding my bike with my husband, like we're gonna go on a bike ride. And so I'm not going to say yes to any more work today. I'm going to go home. I've been working since seven. So we're building these things intentionally into our day. And then n is never settle. So you are choosing in this point in your journey to never settle for going back there to that life. Again, that does not mean that your life is sunshine and rainbows. Jen, this has been the hardest beginning of my school year of my entire career. I started the school year with 30 kindergarteners, I got COVID After the third day of teaching, so I was out for three days. And I felt I felt physically terrible. When I came back for that Thursday and Friday that I still had 30 kindergarteners, we got a new teacher, thank God, she's amazing. That transition has been challenging because she needs a lot of help. And I'm doing we're doing extra work to set her up for success, which is what we should do we want her to be you know, successful. It has been so incredibly hard. And I did have a few days there where I was very emotional. I'm not sure if I was super emotional because I was coming down on COVID Or because I was just feeling the feelings. But I consistently had to tell myself, you're feeling beginning where I am. You're feeling this way. Because this is really hard, like 30 kindergarteners in one classroom is hard. Okay. Oh, yeah. Now you have COVID. Okay, that's why you're feeling so terrible. This is temporary. This is not forever, and understanding my teacher brand, okay, are you continuing to maintain a good attitude because this is nobody's fault. This just is you had like five kids register on the day before school started. This just happened, it's out of your control. So you have to let it go and move on reflecting on your challenges. So the never settle step is really about knowing that the burnin process is not linear, it's cyclical. You're gonna continue to come back to these steps. Anytime that you are feeling yourself going back to that level one, or stage one stage zero, where you're like, what is the point? Why this just continues to get harder? And that's when you stop and you think about okay, how long have I been thinking about this? Have I talked about it? Have I asked for help? You know, all of these questions that help us to come up with an answer that helps us to take take us to the next step. And I heard a quote this morning, I was listening to another podcast and she said when you feel unsettled, it's because you shouldn't be settling. And I heard that and I was like, Oh, that's so perfect for that last step of the process. Because when you feel unsettled, it's because you know that you are not going to settle for feeling these feelings anymore. And that's when we get to start this process over again. And it becomes easier. Every time that you move through this. Rather than staying stuck and parked in burnout where I was for so long. It becomes easier to back your car to that spot and

Jen Rafferty 29:54
move on. Oh, I love Yes, yes. And you're so right Ah, this is a journey, it is not like you wake up one day, and you got it for the rest of your life. And this is it, you don't have to do that work anymore. You know, this is the most incredible work that you get to do. Because it makes everything else in your life so much more fulfilling, so much richer, so much deeper, because you have that intentionality behind it, knowing that you are in the driver's seat. So I so appreciate you sharing all of those steps with us because they are actionable steps that people can walk away with, you know, these little nuggets of thought, as they're listening to this podcast today and hopefully start to change their mindset around what it means to be burnt out and understanding their role.

Amber Harper 30:46
Yeah, you're welcome. I'm always so happy to share this because what we don't need in our lives as teachers is more theory and philosophy, telling somebody to take care of themselves can mean very different things to many different people. So what I needed so badly, I am very logistical. I want to know, like, what is it that I need, like, tell me what to do. So I can try it. I don't want theory, I don't want philosophy, I want action. And that's why you know, I love so much that you that use the word activation earlier, that's one of my top five strengths is activator. And that's what I try to live every day. Like if something's not going well, I want to I want to move through it. I don't know if I can necessarily fix it. But I know that there are certain things that I can do to kind of mitigate that challenge and make it lesser, you know, for me, or my kids or whatever, and you know, whatever the situation is,

Jen Rafferty 31:35
yes. And that is again, the most beautiful gift that we have to ourselves, we're not waiting for somebody to save us anymore, we get to save ourselves in a way that feels really aligned to what we want to do and who we want to be. So that's just

Amber Harper 31:50
beautiful. If I can say one more thing, too, is that you know, although the steps are the same, they are very open ended for you to fit into your life. There's no wrong answers. We come from different personality types, different backgrounds, different goals, different seasons of life, there is no wrong way to implement these steps into your life.

Jen Rafferty 32:10
Yeah, it's great. And it makes it attainable and accessible for everybody, which is exactly what people need. It's great. Great. Great, it's great. So I have to ask you the same question I asked everybody on this podcast, which is, you know, in the work that you do, and coming from that perspective, what is your dream for the future of education?

Amber Harper 32:29
My dream is that the people that are making the decisions for our schools are people who actually have worked in a school like in a public school setting. We know from so many different situations that a lot of the decisions that are made are made by people who have, if ever rarely stepped foot into a classroom for multiple days on end, to see what really happens here. And especially now, there's so many disappointing things being said, about education, about teachers about what our intentions are with students. And I think that's really disappointing, because if they were to step into any school, most schools, you would see that our intentions are good. And we really are trying to serve these kids the best way that we can and that we know how and that we're able with the time that we're allowed. And unfortunately, I don't believe that that's the case right now. And I just wish that teachers had a chance to shine. And we're able to show politicians and curriculum writers and publishers you know what real school really looks like on a daily basis. Hmm And you deserve to be paid way more.

Jen Rafferty 33:45
Well, that would be a byproduct wouldn't it? Right exactly. Yeah, I love that you said that that is so important. And you know every time someone shares their dream out loud I hope it brings us all closer to it so thank you for sharing that so how can people get in touch with you learn more about you get your book and all of the things burned in teacher and Amber Harper?

Amber Harper 34:08
Yeah, there's lots of ways you can find me I'm on all social media at burned in teacher all one word. So Instagram, you can send me a DM you can follow me there. That's where I hang out the most. I do have a free podcast Facebook community so facebook.com/groups/bird and teacher and of course you can go to Burnden teacher.com. To learn more about me more about the services that I offer, such as getting my you can get my book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, but all those things you can find on burnin teacher.com

Jen Rafferty 34:38
Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of your expertise and your story. I really appreciate you spending your time with me especially because I know how intentional you are with your time. It means a lot. Thank you.

Amber Harper 34:49
Thank you for having me. This was an honor.

Jen Rafferty 34:52
So if you enjoyed today's episode, please make sure you follow all of Amber's links that are going to be in the show notes. Subscribe and share this episode with a friend and we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty 35:03
Incredible right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.

Journey to compassionate parenting: A comprehensive guide to understanding and managing emotional triggers with Synthia Praglin

Ever feel overwhelmed and unsure if you’re doing this whole parenting thing right?

You’re not alone, and in this episode, I dive into the real and raw moments of parenting with Parent Coach, Synthia Praglin.

We unpacked the layers of parent coaching, a journey where I learned it's not about changing our children but transforming the parent’s perspective and response to their child's behavior.

We dig deep into our own triggers, rooted in unmet needs and unprocessed experiences. Synthia’s wisdom unveils a haunting yet comforting truth: our children mirror our unhealed wounds.

We explored the power of seeing our kids beyond their behaviors. Every tantrum and smile reflects unmet needs and unexpressed emotions. In Synthia’s words, we’ll discover a world where compassion and understanding are the cornerstones of parenting.

Are you ready to step into this space of learning and growing together?

Stay empowered,
Jen

Let’s keep the conversation going! Find me at:
Jen Rafferty | Instagram, YouTube, Facebook | Linktree
Instagram: @jenrafferty_
Facebook: Empowered Educator Faculty Room

About Synthia:
For as long as I can remember, I have always had a passion for working with children and families. Having grown up in a family system where “children were seen but not heard” I knew there had to be a better and healthier way to raise children. Having my own child reinforced this notion and from early on, I made a promise to raise my son in a way that was respectful, and from a place of curiosity, compassion and conscious awareness. Parent coaching gives you the opportunity to talk about your specific parenting challenges, all while navigating the developmental transitions in your child’s life. Through a lens of curiosity, rather than blame or judgment, we will look at the “why” of behavior and strive to understand what the behavior is telling us. With this clarity and understanding, we are better equipped to help our child through these difficult moments thereby strengthening the parent - child relationship. My philosophy is based in a Mindful/Conscious Parenting model that takes a relationship based view of parenting and emphasizes the importance of nurturing the connection between parent and child. My goal is to help you bring lightness, laughter, and love back into your home. To help joyfulness and tranquility find a place at the table. To teach you to forgive yourself when you are human and move forward. To feel in control and optimistic about the future, and your family.

Connect with Synthia:

IG: @imperfectparentingla
FB: Imperfect Parenting
Email: contact@imperfectparenting.com

TRANSCRIPT: Jen Rafferty 00:02
Are you caught in the whirlwind of overwhelming responsibilities? Forgetting the fiery passion that once fueled your teaching journey? Do Sunday's fill you with dread? And as the very thought of Monday morning sent chills down your spine? Well, it's time to toss those feelings out the window. Welcome to season three of the Take Notes podcast, where you get to give yourself a permission slip to disrupt the status quo, reclaim your agency and step into a world where you get to make yourself a priority in order to show up as your best self. I'm your host Jen Rafferty, former music teacher, Emotional Intelligence Practitioner, mom of two, and founder of Empowered Educator, and I've been where you are. In this season, we're not just talking about surviving, we are diving deep into thriving. Are you ready to take the lead in your life, to not just be an educator, but a revolutionary, and make transformational generational change? Well, let's do this.

Jen Rafferty 01:03
Hello, and welcome back to another fabulous episode of Take Notes. I cannot wait to start this conversation. I am talking with Synthia Praglin, who is a Parent Coach, and I can't wait for all of the things we're gonna talk about today. So first of all, thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with me.

Synthia Praglin 01:20
Thank you. It's wonderful opportunity. I appreciate you reaching out.

Jen Rafferty 01:25
Yes, absolutely. This is an important conversation to have. So before we really dive into some of the juicy parts of what we're gonna talk about today is can you explain what is Parent Coaching? And why is it important?

Synthia Praglin 01:39
Great question. So Parent Coaching is basically a modality and an opportunity for a parent to work with an experienced clinician, it might be a therapist, or it might simply be a parent coach who doesn't also have clinical skills. But what we do as Parent Coaches, is help parents shift their perspective about their child and their child's behavior. If all we're looking at is the behavior, we tend to play whack-a-mole, if we're looking at what's beyond the behavior or underneath the behavior, then we have an opportunity to really build our connection and our bond with our child. Because we're not addressing behavior, we're addressing the feelings, were addressing unmet needs. So Parent Coaching is an opportunity for a parent to learn some skills that they might not otherwise have. Partly because maybe that wasn't the way they grew up. They grew up into different parenting dynamic, a different environment where children were seen and not heard, or children were told to obey their parents, with very little opportunity to express their feelings. So I use what I call a relational model, which is basically what kind of relationship do I want to have with my child. And so one of the first things that I will say to a parent or a couple is, I want you to imagine that your child's come home with a homework assignment. And the assignment is that they are supposed to write a paragraph about you. If you were actually to look and read this paragraph, what would you want to see written about yourself? And I think that that's an Aha! moment for parents. Right? Because children are always watching, they're always observing, they're always taking in, and their self image comes from how they see us reflected back in our eyes. And if what they hear is that, she's such a pain, she's such a brat, he's so spoiled, he's so manipulative, just giving you a hard time all the time. Children internalize that. And then that's how they see themselves. So we as parents need to take a long, hard look at what are the messages we're giving our children about how we see them.

Jen Rafferty 04:03
So powerful. Okay, there's a lot that I want to unpack here. So I want to start with this one thing. You said that these are skills. I just want to be really honest, for everyone that's listening. We don't know how to parent just because we had parents. Likely, we grow up and we do the you know, we had married or we don't get married, and we have kids, and we don't have kids or kids come into our lives for all sorts of reasons. And we're kind of just expected to figure it out and coming to a place where you are asking for Parent Coaching. I think that there's a barrier there because of our ego and our ability to just sit it down for a second and look at that big picture like what you were describing that these are skills that there are so many different ways to do this. It doesn't have to be a struggle you can actually enjoy your time as a parent. And it doesn't mean anything about you doesn't mean that you're bad, it doesn't mean that you're not good enough. What it means is that you get to be a seeker of information, and do something differently and learn more about yourself and your child to have a much deeper relationship with yourself and your child. That's a big thing. I think, honestly for me, you know I think 10 years ago, when I first had my son, oh, gosh, eleven and a half years ago, now, I don't know that I would have been open to having a Parent Coach, because my ego would have said, well, what do you mean, I need a Parent Coach? Do you come up against that?

Synthia Praglin 05:40
100%, because, as you said, our approach to parenting is how we were parented, pretty much, and then we find ourselves in with loggerheads in our kid, and we want them to do something that we want them to do, and they have their own opinions, and they're gonna bite us, because we don't remember being that way as children. So we don't have that experiential. What we do have is how people responded to us when we were that way. So I often get parents will say, well, I need you to fix my kid. He's doing this and that, what can you do to fix my kid? It's not my job. I'm not here to fix your kid. I'm here to help you figure out why you're being triggered by what your child is doing.

Jen Rafferty 06:26
Yeah, so let's talk about that. Because that was the next piece that I wanted it to go towards. As we're diving in here, these triggers that we have, it's about us, so our kids do something, and whether you're a parent, or whether you're a teacher, we know cognitively, that behaviors are symptoms of other things underneath. But when we ourselves are triggered by a behavior, there isn't space or time for us to figure out what this child is going through. We're dealing with our own stuff right now, which is, I think, to your point, this is really about the adult in the situation. So can you talk a little bit about navigating that space.

Synthia Praglin 07:06
So it is about the adult, because oftentimes, what bothers us most about what our child is doing is that we were not permitted to do that as child. Right? So let's just use a very common example, their child is tantruming. If when you were a child, your tantrums, were not okay. To be had you were told, stop crying, big boys don't cry, I'll give you something to cry about, it's not a crisis. You know, all of those feelings were pushed down, you were basically told that your feelings weren't allowed. And so to be in the situation of having your child do that, like, No! No! that's not going to work because it's bringing up too much in you. And we tend to shut down in those moments, or we rage. The two ends of the spectrum, neither of which is helpful, not helpful to us not helpful to our child. So in my work with parents, when an incident like that comes up, my first question is, what do you know about tantrums? From your own life? Oh, nothing! Yeah, my parents are fine with my tantrum. Two weeks later, let's talk about that tangent again. What do you know about tantrums? You know, I don't think I was allowed to have them. And so then it allows the parent to start to become more vulnerable, and open up. And then I mean, it's the short version. If a parent can become more understanding about their own experiences, they become more compassionate and empathic towards their child's experience. And that's the sweet spot. That's the absolute sweet spot. When a parent can say, Wow! This is really hard for you, we get it, you're not ready to leave the park, you're having such a great time, you went down the slide today for the first time, you're so proud of yourself, I know I get it. In that moment, that child's gonna feel heard, and seen and understood. And it's not mom's agenda that we need to go to market. It's I get it. And when parents get down on children's level, which is a whole other thing that parents think we can talk to children from five foot five, not that I'm five foot five, but if I were five foot five, you know, like, it doesn't work. Children are little people. And we are expectations of their ability to make transitions, and understand, and approach life from a rational, and logical standpoint, is so misplaced. And so we have to be compassionate. I used, there's a researcher therapist, her name is Mona Delahooke, and she talks about the iceberg. And so above the iceberg are all the things the behaviors that we see the screaming, kicking, the yelling, the hitting below the iceberg are all the feelings that are needing to be met, needing to be expressed, that are not being met. And so that's what's informing the behavior on top. So we can get parents to not pay attention to the behavior. I see you hit your sister, when, who, what's going on for you, what's making you feel like hitting your sisters the only way to get what you need. Maybe it's that moms paying too much attention to the sister, or at least in the child's mind, mom is paying too much attention to the sister, whatever it is, there's an unmet feeling or an unmet need. So again, back to the beginning of the question, helping parents become more understanding of their child's emotional state, is what's going to both help the parent because in that moment, and this is the other sweet spot, I think, for parents, we get to parent ourselves. Re-parent, the little girl or the little boy in us who didn't get what we needed, as a child. And yes, our parents did the best they could with what they had, and, all of that, in a lot of cases. And in a lot of cases, not a lot of kids who grow up in very toxic environments, and come to parenting with a very blank template, except for what they experience. And helping those parents see that there's another way, children come into this world loving us and wanting to be loved. They don't have an agenda. Their agenda is only to feel connected. So I'm actually working really hard to take certain words out of parents vocabularies, like the word tantrum, immediately, it has a negative connotation. What if we replace tantrum with big feelings? We all know what big feelings feel like, even as adults, it doesn't necessarily have a negative impact. But tantrum does, right? Or she's just looking for attention. Another one that has a very negative connotation to it. What if we replace she's looking for attention with, she's looking for connection?

Jen Rafferty 12:25
Yeah, those small changes make a huge difference and take away the judgment, because that's part of what I know you talk a lot about too is when we start to remove the blame and the judgment, when we start to get curious, then that's a game changer because we're not labeling something as a tantrum or attention seeking. What we're doing is we're now getting curious, okay, this young person has big feelings, what's going on? Or this young person is seeking connection? What kind of connection? How can I meet this child's needs, and those questions are going to be the ones that make some headway and get some traction to where you ultimately want to go. Which is getting to a point where there's a homeostasis again, where everyone feels safe in their bodies and environments and their nervous system.

Synthia Praglin 13:12
Right. And, I love you're using the word curious, because most parents are uncomfortable in the not-knowing.

Jen Rafferty 13:21
Yeah, let's talk more about that. 100%

Synthia Praglin 13:24
We need to know what's wrong. Because we can fix it. What if it doesn't need to be fixed? What if it just needs to be? And what if all the child is needing is hug? Right. So that curiosity and staying in the unknown, to really uncomfortable for a lot of parents, you know, our job is to make it better, Fix it! And a lot of times, we just can't. And so there's a lot of tools that we could use in those moments where you just kind of mirror back what you're seeing or hearing, I can hear that sounds really hard for you. You don't have to have the answer, or just physically touching the child. I wonder if what you need is just to hug. Right? And then it just kind of dissipates. And then we can help the child regain their sense of regulation by borrowing our calm. I tell parents, an escalated parent cannot de escalate an escalated child.

Jen Rafferty 14:32
A hundred percent! Can we say that again? Just for the people at the back?

Synthia Praglin 14:36
An escalated parent cannot de-escalate an escalated child. Right? That's all about our own reactivity. Right, which again, is something triggers us. We need to be a little bit more intentional and mindful. Unless it's a crisis where your child is running into traffic. You can take three seconds, just go... and breathe.

Jen Rafferty 15:03
Yeah. So let's talk about that awareness because that's an important part of this is when the triggers happen, being aware of the trigger is essential to doing any of the steps that we're talking about. So how do you walk parents through building that awareness muscle?

Synthia Praglin 15:21
So back track, back track, self care. Number one, we are more likely to fly off the handle, if we're not taking care of ourselves. Okay, and I know, I've done it, I've said, all continuously, I don't have time, I don't have time, my kids are my priority we need to make time. Because if we are not taking care of ourselves, we are not going to be the parent we want to be. And our kids not going to get the parent they deserve to have. So self care is one thing. So that you know, sort of the foundation. And then in those moments, when you realize that you've said something that you just want to pull it back or you behaved in a way that is not how you want to be, we call that the rupture. And we have to repair that, and we need to repair it in a timely manner. And it might not be in the same 30 seconds. It might be five minutes later where we say, You know what? That wasn't okay the way I acted, that wasn't okay what I said, mommy's feeling very stressed out today, Mommy didn't get a lot of sleep last night. Now, if you didn't do XYZ, mommy wouldn't have done, because then that's black. We need to be accountable for our behavior, and not put it out on our kids. Our kids are being kids, a three year olds been on the planet 900 and something days, right? Like, when I say that to parents, they realize, Oh yeah! they haven't been here that long. They don't know everything I know. Right? You're operating from their lower brainstem. Strictly emotions. I don't care if they've just repeated the theory of relativity to you five minutes ago, and now they're throwing themselves on the floor. It's the same child. But mostly it's the kid throwing themselves on the floor. Right? So we need to be accountable for our own stuff. And we need to share that with our child or a partner for that matter. And to be able to say, I messed up. And I'm going to try to do better, which also the other message there to our children. It's okay to mess up. It's okay not to do it perfectly. Right? I mean, I feel like this is like an octopus with tentacles all over the place. Like, we show one thing, we model something for our children, and then they know that it's okay, that we're gonna love them even when they mess up. And then we come back, and we reconnect, and we regulate together. And then we can move on. These are the skills we want to give our children so that when they're out on their own without us, it's like the little mommy bird sitting on your shoulder saying, what would you do if Mommy was here? How would you handle this situation? Because we talked about this stuff over and over and over. I used to play the what if game with my son? What if so and so does this at school? What are some things that you can do? And that's building that muscle. And it's also if parents would spend a little bit of time you're going to pick your kid up at school, you're excited to see them, but you know that they're kind of grumpy when they get in the car? Okay, what if he's grumpy when I get in the car today? Like not to take it personally. How can I help him, kind of make that transition from school to the car? Right? And what all that's about. And I think there needs to be a greater awareness of what it's like for children to be at school all day, around a lot of kids needing to hold it together expectations about behavior, and then coming home to the safest space they know, and just needing to let it out. Right? And how parents can say, Wow! must have been a hard day at school today. Because they see that you're having a hard time at home. Let's talk about it. Right? There's a mismatch, I think, because parents have expectations about how their children should behave, how they were expected to behave when they were children, which they put on their children. And then we missed that important element, which is the compassion and the empathy.

Jen Rafferty 19:54
Yeah! So there are two things I want to talk about here. I want to bring it back to something you said at the beginning is that our kids are always watching us. And when we do make different choices, we are actively breaking old paradigms. And that is such important work, you know, as teachers, as parents as whatever you do in this world, if you have a connection with kids in any way, this is the most important work that you can be doing, not only because it's going to bring you closer to the children in your life, but because you are giving them an opportunity to see a different world than you were able to. And that's huge. That's how we make generational change, we break these old paradigms, and we make room for something more robust and vibrant. And that's really what this is all about. And, of course, your experience as well, that I don't want to minimize that. But it's bigger than you. And I think is my my point here. And I also want to say, because this is the second time we kind of hit on this thing, and I want to explore this a little bit is when you start to make new choices with your kids, you do get to repair it yourself. And I would love for you to talk more about what is like, and why that's really important

Synthia Praglin 21:11
It is really important for anyone who came from, we've all come from all different experiences, some are better than others, some were quite dysfunctional, quite toxic. And therapy and counseling is super important to help you understand that you're not to blame for any of those situations, whoever was your caretaker had their own issues, you as an adult get to make different choices. And hopefully with a lot of support. Parenting, and I can speak for myself, it was a very triggering experience for me, because I came from a background that was toxic and dysfunctional. And I remember thinking, it didn't affect me, though. Like, I'm good, I'm going to be able to do this. And then I wasn't. And then I wasn't because there was just stuff, and a lot of it for me, was the crying and the intensity, that tantrums of which I have with this book called The Body Keeps the Score. And I may not have a physical memory of it, or conscious memory of it. But it's in there. And I would just be paralyzed and was unable to move forward and comfort my child because I was stuck. And what I was needing in that moment was somebody to put their arms around me and say it's okay. And I didn't get that. And so took a lot of years and a lot of hard work for me to be able to go and I don't want to sound like the worst parent in the world because I wasn't I was able to comfort my son. But he took a lot of emotional energy for me to do that, you know that I was doing that for him. And years of it finally trickling down that I could feel that sense of comfort in the moment as well. And so hugging him, I was hugging me. And you know, there were tears from me and tears flowing. And it was painful and beautiful at the same time. And when I finally understood what that was about, it made it easier moving forward. But initially, it was a really difficult thing. And it's interesting when he was an infant, it was easy because I knew he was so dependent on me and that I had to do that for him. It was more when he became a toddler and a preschooler and early elementary school, where I think again, my expectations were way higher than they should have been. And he still really needed me. Somebody needed to tell me he's only been on the planet a 900 days, right? Because I was just like, why are you doing that? And I wasn't getting it. It was a mismatch. It's a total mismatch. But when I did, and I share this with parents when I work with them, I mean, I, I share my mommy fails, because I think there's wonderful, valuable information in that and that why we're humans, we are humans, and we're going to have bad days, just like our kids are going to have bad days. And we need to give ourselves grace and we need to give our children grace for those. Yeah, so that re-parenting, it makes-you-makes-me a better parent. And it helps my child. It strengthens their resolve to do it differently as well. And then they come out feeling good about themselves.

Jen Rafferty 24:58
Yeah, and that's really what we want.

Synthia Praglin 25:01
Right.

Jen Rafferty 25:01
I mean, the mental health issues...

Synthia Praglin 25:04
Which is a whole nother topic of children these days is crazy! And these children just need to be seen and heard.

Jen Rafferty 25:11
The tools to articulate that necessarily. And so what we see is behavior. And at the same time, like you said, there's this mismatch of us as the adults in these spaces are not getting our needs met, and hadn't before. And since we can't give something we don't have, unless we're doing this inner work, there is always going to be that mismatch.

Synthia Praglin 25:37
And the mismatch is is gonna exist. I mean, we actually know that we're only in sync with our kids 1/3 of the time. That's like a minut amount of time. But if that 1/3 is quality, then that's beautiful. Right? If our children know that they can come to us with any question, come to us with any concern and that we are going to be open and hold space for those feelings. Right? It's like, No, it's not okay to beat your sister up. But yeah, it's okay to have those feelings because she took the toy out of your hand. But let's talk about the feelings that you're having. How can we make a better choice next time? What can we say? What can we do? Right? The only way we're going to change behavior is to acknowledge that beyonds,

Jen Rafferty 26:27
Absolutely! And so how does this work as we get older, my kids now are nine and 11. And the conversations around feelings and behaviors are different, especially now that my oldest is in like, he likes to identify as a preteen at this point. And we know hormones are raging and all the things. And so he's moving into these years that are different in navigating for me as a parent than they were, you know, when he was five. So how do you work with parents of older kids? Is it similar process? Or are there different things that you address when there's kind of this dissonance that's happening?

Synthia Praglin 27:10
So one of the things I suggest is finding something that you and your child enjoy doing together, and making time for that, because kids will find the group to hang out with and separate from their families, if they're not getting what they need at home. And some of that is appropriate and developmentally appropriate, they need to separate a bit. But they also need to know that home is where the safety net is so bad. If stuff is happening in the social group that they're not comfortable with, they need to be able to call and say. So when this was before smartphone when my son was in middle school, years ago, and he would call or he could call and say I need my gray sweatshirt, no questions asked. That was code for me, I'm done here. Not having a good time don't like what's going on, please pick me up. And there were no questions ask. It only happened once. But you have to find a way to connect with your child. And so spending one on one time with each of your children is super important. I know we do this whole family thing, we all want to do this together, now together. And really, our kids need us individually. So they don't share us. They'd been sharing us, the little ones been sharing his or her whole life, right? So it's really important to find that special one on one time doing something that you both enjoy, or that your child enjoys, and you're gonna do it because they enjoy it. Right? So that's going to build that bond, and that connection. And it's gonna help during those tough times when, yes, hormones are raging. And they're questioning whether or not they can share this with you. If children truly feel that we are an honest space, they will come to us and they will ask us stuff. I always tried to be the house where people gather. You know, if you've got a cool, that's a really big draw, right? Or you got to be playroom or something that's a really big draw, but only if your child likes you enough to want to bring his friends there. Right? Or driving carpool. Now is a great way to sort of get an idea of what's going on. And then you sort of leave the door open with your child for questions or anything you want to talk about. Right? I also, like at least you can find these on the internet, questions do you have at the dinner table? Right you could spend, if you could have dinner with anybody in history, who would it be? Kind of benign questions but you gives you an insight into what are some things that your kids are interested in what's important to them. And what it does do is he gets parents to stop talking about car insurance at dinner.

Jen Rafferty 30:13
Because let's be honest, he wants to talk about that anyway.

Synthia Praglin 30:15
And your kids are like, I don't get this. And I don't feel like if dinner time is supposed to be family time, then make it family time. Right. So again, it's about reinforcing that bond, and recognizing that you are in this for the long term, because once your kids go off to college, and you're lonely, you're going to want him to come back and visit you. And the only way to do that is to ensure that that relationship and the foundations for that relationship are being built now that you are safe space that your child feels seen. This is Dan Siegel and Tina Paine Bryson, Seeing Feel, Heard, and Secured. Right. In all of the definitions of that. Yeah.

Jen Rafferty 31:01
all of their books are fantastic. So if you're interested in any of that, go check them out. I think I have most of them on my bookshelf. Yes. All right. Yeah. And you're right, it is a long game. And they think this is an important piece to remember here too. Is that a day here and there a week here and there feels like forever when you're in it. When the days are long, you know, the years are fast. And so that moment in time that feels like forever, really isn't.

Synthia Praglin 31:33
It's just a season.

Jen Rafferty 31:34
Right? It's season, that's a beautiful way of looking at this and we can course correct whenever we need to. And it's all okay. And we have supports that you are not as much as you might feel like you're alone in this, you are not because there is community everywhere, and people like you, Cynthia, who are doing this work that is so important in this world. So I'm so glad that we were actually able to have this conversation on this platform, it is a message that I hope every parent hears. And so before we wrap up, I would love to ask you what I asked all of my guests, which is what is your dream for the future of education?

Synthia Praglin 32:14
Great question. Um, in a general way, I'd love to see education tailored more towards what an individual child needs, rather than the row testing kind of thing. Like, to me, I was never a great test taker, I could write a great paper, but standardized tests were not my friend. So those things I'd like to see less of and more of really understanding what each individual child is about, so that they can live their best lives. I'd also love to see more collaboration between parents and teachers, parent-teacher conferences, tend to be about EVs. My recollection of... well, handwriting is a little sloppy, you know, like, who cares? Who cares when I'm writing is my child emoji are my children motional needs being met in the classroom, or my child's interests being met in the classroom, in there's a project that they do in fourth grade, or they did in fourth grade at my son's school that I thought was so interesting at the time, and has since become amazing. So it was choose a person in history. And you have to dress up as this person and bring those three sided science boards and do a whole thing on this person. And my son decided, I don't know where this came from, to be Frank Lloyd Wright. Okay, amazing architect. He's now entering his second year of architecture school. So that stuck with him. And it was, that the whole project was not about your handwriting. It was about what's interesting to you. What do you want to do? That is going to bring more joy to your life and interests to your life. And so I would love to see us get away from the standardized things and be more creative. I don't like to use the word progressive. I think that's kind of weird word. But there's so much creativity and opportunity to do things that stimulate a child's interest. Writing the spelling words 10 times each with a sentence is not what will stimulate interest. It's busy work. So yeah, I want it to look like a cooking class. I think it was what I wanted to live by a little bit these ingredients, these ingredients, put them together. And my cake may not look like the same as your cake, but does it taste good. You know, I know that's good. That's kind of good.

Jen Rafferty 34:52
I love that. I think it's great and you know who doesn't like cake? I think that would make a more delicious world all around, and I so appreciate you sharing that dream because it is really my hope when we share our dreams out loud, that we get closer to them with everyone listening. So thank you for that. So this conversation has been fantastic. And I would love for you to share with people how they can get in touch with you and learn more about the work that you do.

Synthia Praglin 35:21
Th,ank you, I love to. So A Calling in I, have a coaching company business called Imperfect Parenting LA. And we'll have our website up and phone number and easy to reach us through that.

Jen Rafferty 35:36
Fantastic. Yeah, that's great. And so we'll make sure that those links for all of it is in the show notes along with any Facebook or Instagram or social media that you have. So everyone can get in touch with you super easily. And I'm sure they will, because I would love to continue to have this conversation forever. It is so important. And I'm so grateful that you were able to share your time and your talents with me and with the Take Notes audience. So thank you so much for being here.

Synthia Praglin 36:02
Oh, thank you for having me. This has been very fun. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. It's a passion of mine. I want to change the world. I want to change all the parents out there.

Jen Rafferty 36:12
Amen. And you're doing it you are actively doing it. And for the people who are listening right now to, you are sparking their interests. And we change one step at a time, one person at a time. And this is the path. So thank you. And thank you for listening for those of you who are listening today. If you liked today's episode, please make sure you leave a review, share with a friend and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And we'll see you next time on Take Notes.

Jen Rafferty 36:39
Incredible, right? Together, we can revolutionize the face of education. It's all possible. And it's all here for you right now. Let's keep the conversation going at Empowered Educator Faculty Room on Facebook.